Opening with liberty

VainoValkea

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In BNW I've opened most of my games with tradition. I want to try a wider strategy with liberty. Would it make sense to still take the tradition opener for the +3 culture, for unlocking the rest of the early policies faster? Later on, legalism could be abused for free broadcast towers or whatnot.

ps. I play King when experimenting with new strategies, if that's of any importance
 
It actually doesn't work that way. The +3 culture doesn't speed up policy acquisition if you found lots of cities and build Monumente in them (which you'll need anyway to claim tiles). It will, at best, allow you to skip Monument in the capital, but that's about it.

I still think it is useful to get the first policy in Tradition to speed tile claiming in the capital, to open Hanging Gardens, and to prep for free Opera Houses or whatnot, but that's more dependent on how fast you're generating Great Musicians.

Of all the openers, the only opener that speeds up policy acquisition is Honor, and that's dependent on using Aztecs to double the culture yield from Barb farming.
 
In BNW I've opened most of my games with tradition. I want to try a wider strategy with liberty. Would it make sense to still take the tradition opener for the +3 culture, for unlocking the rest of the early policies faster? Later on, legalism could be abused for free broadcast towers or whatnot.
No. Because social policy costs increase exponentially, the +3 from the Tradition opener quickly becomes insignificant compared to the increasing policy costs.

If you take nothing but Liberty policies you'll finish the tree quite a bit faster than if you take the Tradition opener, then Liberty policies. (Pure liberty overtakes Tradition opener + Liberty on the fourth or fifth policy.)

This doesn't necessarily mean that taking the Tradition opener is a bad idea; if you plan on taking a couple Tradition policies eventually then the Tradition opener is a good first pick.

In G&K, it was generally recommended to go all Liberty or all Tradition; mixing the two trees was generally sub-optimal because you wanted to finish one of the trees ASAP; they both had really good finishers. For BNW, I think mixing the two trees is more viable. (Of course, focusing on just one of the trees is also viable.)
 
Yes, in general, it never pays off to take a policy only for the Culture it provides, because sooner or later, that will always have cost you more than it has gained you. So if you shop into a tree, only do it if the tree actually offers you something you want. Opening Tradition will allow you to build Hanging Gardens, for instance, so if that's a priority for you, it may be worth it. Obviously, if you intend to go further into the tree, the sooner you pick the policies that give you culture, the more culture you'll get over the duration of the game.
 
In BNW I've opened most of my games with tradition. I want to try a wider strategy with liberty. Would it make sense to still take the tradition opener for the +3 culture, for unlocking the rest of the early policies faster? Later on, legalism could be abused for free broadcast towers or whatnot.

ps. I play King when experimenting with new strategies, if that's of any importance
Don't listen to the nay sayers. The above advice is only true if you do not plan to ever take a policy in Tradition. The exponential growth of social policy cost makes it take slightly longer to reach the end of Liberty if you add the additional policy from opening Tradition.

If, however, you plan to take Tradition policies after Liberty (or to interweave the two policy trees), then opening Tradition first and Liberty second is the absolute best way to achieve this blended strategy!

I have used this to good effect in some games. Opening tradition gives +3 :c5culture: and also increase border expansion. I often take the policy for wonder :c5production: bonus in Tradition as well. Liberty then helps you expand to 4-6 cities faster and to develop the cities quicker. After this you can return to Tradition in time to get 4 free Opera Houses (don't wait for Museums or Broadcast towers as the later Tradition policies will be too late) from Legalism. The finisher will then provide the mid game growth just in time for your population to catch up with the :c5happy: from early expansion.

BNW made this strategy even more appealing by tying specific wonders to policy trees. Getting both the HG and the Pyramids makes for a very strong start to the game. Planting a free GS outside your NC city (preferably with a mountain) from the Liberty finisher also helps with early :c5science: generation.
 
No. Because social policy costs increase exponentially, the +3 from the Tradition opener quickly becomes insignificant compared to the increasing policy costs.
Sort of. While costs do increase exponentially as you acquire policies, they also increase based on the number of cities you've got, so it can be advantageous to pump culture as hard as you can when you just have one or two cities. This is what folks who rag on the Honor opener just don't get. They look at the amount of culture over the course of the game and call the few hundred points you'll get from killing barbs meaningless. But the value of a few hundred points isn't consistent from start to finish. It's very precious in the early game.

In G&K, it was generally recommended to go all Liberty or all Tradition; mixing the two trees was generally sub-optimal because you wanted to finish one of the trees ASAP; they both had really good finishers. For BNW, I think mixing the two trees is more viable. (Of course, focusing on just one of the trees is also viable.)
It's nice to free aqueducts sooner rather than later, and of course the GP you get from Liberty is almost always going to be a GE, so that's something to plan for. You ain't get getting no Petra if you don't fast-track that bad boy.

But yeah, dabbling is totally doable, to get those wonders if nothing else. Forbidden Palace is just about worth a Patronage opener all on its lonesome.
 
My free great person from Liberty is almost always a GS. This is especially true since BNW where early :c5science: seems slower in my experience so far. Getting that early Academy up and running makes a world of difference!
 
Sort of. While costs do increase exponentially as you acquire policies, they also increase based on the number of cities you've got, so it can be advantageous to pump culture as hard as you can when you just have one or two cities. This is what folks who rag on the Honor opener just don't get. They look at the amount of culture over the course of the game and call the few hundred points you'll get from killing barbs meaningless. But the value of a few hundred points isn't consistent from start to finish. It's very precious in the early game.


It's nice to free aqueducts sooner rather than later, and of course the GP you get from Liberty is almost always going to be a GE, so that's something to plan for. You ain't get getting no Petra if you don't fast-track that bad boy.

But yeah, dabbling is totally doable, to get those wonders if nothing else. Forbidden Palace is just about worth a Patronage opener all on its lonesome.

Im not sure its always a GE. Consider that you take the opening in tradition, then everything in liberty, you can still get a GS quite early, also around the time that you get NC up (assuming that you have expanded to 3/4 cities). You can then build an academy which when worked by your NC actually accounts for a significant amount of early research. Poland are a very good civ to do this with as you can get either 1 or 2 free policies with them (3 with oracle). Ditto for other civs especially if you get oracle.

In my Poland game i employed this strategy on emperor and despite playing against the Maya (who took the free science when converting a city from religion and built great mosque of Djenn), I was at parity in the early renaissance and with 6 good cities I intend on accelerating from there. i finished both tradition and liberty very early, completing the tree when i hit renaissance which gave me the free Aqueduct.
 
I have to expand much slower in BNW than in G&K. A lot slower, grabbing the +3 opener when expanding slow is not such a bad thing imho. It is not optimal, however if you know you will need to wait a while, why not grab that +3? It is very helpful at the stage in the game you grab it.
 
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