killmeplease
Mk Z on Steam
not to say +1 production/culture is so-so in ancient but just laughable in renaissance
Tradition AND Liberty?
- Thread starter cairnsy44
- Start date
My most recent game was a salt start with China (note, lack of good source early culture) and I tried this. I am not sure that mixed Liberty/Tradition is any better than straight Liberty, or maybe Liberty after the Tradition opener (as I have not tried that much).
One ugly surprise that that the free aqueducts from Tradition are in you first four cities (which is what the tool-tip says, but I did not take that literally). I had hard built three, figuring the free ones would appear in other cities, but that is not how it works. Even with strong early culture source, I think this one quirk compromises the mixed approach. Even if you can fill up both trees before unlocking Rationalism, would you not rather have had the policies elsewhere?
I have been trying to get my wide/Liberty games to feel strong, but I am not getting much traction. I am replaying the China-salt-start just going four city Tradition and so far things seem much, much better.
Alien4ngel
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 8
I'm playing this atm with Assyria.
I started Liberty planning to grow wide. Self-founded 4 cities and captured a few others. Opened Patronage and Aesthetics + cultural centres, but I hit serious happiness issues around late medieval / early renaissance. So I took Tradition for Monarchy and Aristocracy to get my cities growing again.
A few things to consider:
- Aristocracy only kicks in for every exactly 10 pop: a city with 9 pop gets no bonus from Aristocracy.
- Free Museums from Legalism offset the delay to Aesthetics somewhat (it was possible to complete Opera Houses having taken Liberty first).
- Don't delay Aqueducts to the Tradition finisher - build them early. Also the finisher aqueducts were bugged, but that may have been fixed in the recent patch (confirmation needed).
- Legalism culture buildings and Tradition finisher's aqueducts and are in your first 4 cities.
- Taking Tradition+Liberty is a trade off for one of the other trees - consider if the focussed boosts from Rationalism, Commerce, or Exploration are better than growing both tall + wide.
I'd say Tradition+Liberty is definitely viable, combining tall+wide for 10+ pop outlying cities/puppets in the mid-game. But as with everything in Civ V, it is situational - you need great city locations to put the extra pop to good use to match Rationalism, Commerce, or Exploration.
I started Liberty planning to grow wide. Self-founded 4 cities and captured a few others. Opened Patronage and Aesthetics + cultural centres, but I hit serious happiness issues around late medieval / early renaissance. So I took Tradition for Monarchy and Aristocracy to get my cities growing again.
A few things to consider:
- Aristocracy only kicks in for every exactly 10 pop: a city with 9 pop gets no bonus from Aristocracy.
- Free Museums from Legalism offset the delay to Aesthetics somewhat (it was possible to complete Opera Houses having taken Liberty first).
- Don't delay Aqueducts to the Tradition finisher - build them early. Also the finisher aqueducts were bugged, but that may have been fixed in the recent patch (confirmation needed).
- Legalism culture buildings and Tradition finisher's aqueducts and are in your first 4 cities.
- Taking Tradition+Liberty is a trade off for one of the other trees - consider if the focussed boosts from Rationalism, Commerce, or Exploration are better than growing both tall + wide.
I'd say Tradition+Liberty is definitely viable, combining tall+wide for 10+ pop outlying cities/puppets in the mid-game. But as with everything in Civ V, it is situational - you need great city locations to put the extra pop to good use to match Rationalism, Commerce, or Exploration.
Only self-founding 4 cities is not wide. I don't see how you get hardly anything out of Liberty.
How can you do that, plus fill out all of Tradition+Liberty and not compromise Rationalism and your ideology. You have to give up something, but what?
Agreed, Legalism works out well no matter the timing.
Agreed, sadly with the benefit of hindsight. But this only emphasizes the point that, for the most benefit, Tradition needs to be completed early.
That’s true for the aqueducts. With just four cities, the culture buildings will wait to spawn until you unlock a tech (if needed). I think the free culture buildings might roll over into a fifth city (for example, you have monument in cap, but not 4 expos) if you have it though, I am not sure. (The aqueducts are strictly limited to your first four.)
I have also tried mixed Tradition+Liberty before the Halloween patch. I end up wide of course (since I have control over that) but every thing is so comprised, that the empire is still not so tall.
My Liberty-only games end up with cities that tall anyway, I did not notice much benefit from Tradition. My cap was taller. I bought less tiles. I really think Tradition opener plus full Liberty is the sweet spot.
I am still not clear on the optimal order for Liberty policies. It seems to me that the policy granting reduced SP cost conflicts with the early settlers.
dasaard200
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2014
- Messages
- 315
In the Liberty tree it is OOOOOOh so tempting to say, "Hey, diddle-diddle, straight down the middle", and go for the "-10% cut on future SPolicies " choice ! (3 picks)
In Tradition, a tough choice; Oligarchy, or Wonder Builder (2 picks) ...
got Raging Barbs ON ??
In Tradition, a tough choice; Oligarchy, or Wonder Builder (2 picks) ...
got Raging Barbs ON ??
Hmm, I think the choice is harder -- because the half-price settlers is on the left side. And hard building a settler helps not at all -- because one wants that 10% cut first!
killmeplease
Mk Z on Steam
isnt it a 33% of a num cities penalty?
for 10 cities (after the capital) it equals 20% general discount
for 5 yes, its 10%
for 10 cities (after the capital) it equals 20% general discount
for 5 yes, its 10%
Antagonise
Warlord
Liberty-Tradition is great as 3 civs: Poland, Songhai and Siam. Poland obviously because they can fill them out fast enough to reap the benefits from both. Songhai and Siam because you can receive 4 free Mud Pyramid Mosques or Wats if you time it right, both fantastic buildings.
59saintdane
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2014
- Messages
- 230
With Liberty, I think it's best to go straight for Collective Rule. Not only does it give you a free settler, it also makes your future ones cheaper...your first 4 settlers will be for the price of only 2. It has diminishing returns the later you pick it, however--on the other hand, the one with the policy discount is less valuable in the early game since you don't have many cities.
With Tradition, Oligarchy first is a no-brainer. It's on the way to Landed Elite and Monarchy, the two most important Tradition policies apart from the finisher. Aristocracy as your 2nd policy would be wasted, because you have no 10 pop cities at the time and you won't be building any wonders until Oracle. Aristocracy is, without fail, always my last tradition policy since the patch.
Having tried-but-not-really-thrived a few times with Liberty-Tradition I remain skeptical. Yes, those three civs could make it work better than most. But those three civs would also be better served playing more conventionally.
Poland does not get the extra SP fast enough, so for wide play I think they would be best served by Tradition opener + full Liberty, just like any other civ going wide.
Post Halloween patch, straight Tradition works even better for Songhai and Siam than it did before. Absolutely they want to time legalism to unlock MPM and Wats, but now they can do that without delaying the timing of the Tradition finisher.
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