local happiness cap and why india sucks

vanatteveldt

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I am playing my first game as India (small, small continents, emperor) and am running into trouble in the late game because of the local happiness cap.

When I first looked at India, e.g. using the guide on the war academy, I naively thought that India had a "break even" happiness at city size 6, and got only better afterwards. This matched my early and mid game experiences, where I struggled initially to found 4 cities and keep them happy, but had all the happiness I needed mid game as the cities matured to size 20+ and luxuries from the other continents came into play.

What I never realized until I started searching specifically for it, is that India also has a lower local happiness cap than other civs. Since I think the information is quite scattered and maybe not widely known, here is what I found out:

  • All building-based happiness, including all the late-game happiness from tenets that give +1 happy per factory/seaport etc., is "local happiness"
  • Local happiness is capped by city size. For most civs, this cap equals the number of citizens, so you can completely cancel out the #citizen based happiness, and every city 'contributes' 3 global unhappy to the empire.
  • For India, local happy is capped at 2/3 the number of citizens (+.5 and rounded down). So, the contribution to global unhappiness with full local happiness is 6 - N/6 (since each citizen adds 1/2 unhappy but can support 2/3 local happy, 2/3-1/2=1/6)
  • So, with full local happiness the break-even point is 18 population per city, where the city adds 6+9=15 unhappiness but can support 18*2/3=12 local happiness, for 3 surplus unhappiness. A city of size 30 with the full 20 local happiness only has 1 surplus unhappy (6+15 unhappy - 20 happy = 1), so 'exports' 2 hapiness above what a non-indian civ can do. However, a recently founded/captured city of size e.g. 6 has (6+3-4=)5 surplus unhappiness even with full local happiness.

This has important consequences for the late game. In my (admittedly limited) experience, early and mid game has mainly global happiness coming from difficulty baseline, natural wonders, and luxuries. This actually increases in the mid game as trade brings in more different luxury resources and possibly more mercantile allies. Wonders, religion and social policies give some global happiness but this is not that much, as most beliefs and tenets actually add local happiness to buildings such as gardens, temples, factories etc.

In the late game, you can experience a drop in global happiness as diplomatic problems can cause luxuries to become unavailable and you can get extra global unhappiness from public opinion. Thus, the global (un)happiness becomes very relevant. You have a relatively fixed pool of global happiness from luxuries, wonders, difficulty, etc, and each city can be improved to produce full local happiness using the tenet bonuses, contributing 3 (normal) or 1 - 5 (india) global unhappiness that has to be 'payed' from the fixed pool of global happy. Since all (?) the extra late game happiness is local happiness, this is a relatively fixed equation.

So why does India suck? If you can play a peaceful game, cruising to space, culture, or diplomatic victory with a "tall" empire, everything is fine as the big cities actually produce less global unhappy than for other civs. However, if you are forced (or choose) to acquire more cities, you often end up with a largish number of smaller cities, with can all easily contribute 4 or 5 to the global unhappiness, instead of the 3 for most civs. Especially puppet cities are bad, as they generally don't grow well because of the gold focus, and they might not build enough to maximize local happiness.

For me, this means that India is severely limited in late-game options. Of course, you can say that India is meant to be played peacefully, but no other civ has a UA that actually penalizes you the way India does, not only in the explicit extra per-city unhappiness, but also through the different local cap. This penalty means that a more aggressive late game is very difficult to sustain as India.

Suggested solution: India should have local happy cap of 3+N/2; in other words, the surplus unhappy of an Indian city should be 3 just like for any other civ.
 
If I understand correctly you're basically saying that going wide with India sucks. But this is clearly the point of its UA, right? If you choose India, you know you have to go tall.
 
OP, please see A general strategy for India (and the linked article). Megabearsfan writes about capped local happiness, and notes early on that occupied cities do not get the UA benefit for half the usual unhappiness for population. I don’t see much discussion there on how to warmonger as India.

However, if you are forced (or choose) to acquire more cities, you often end up with a largish number of smaller cities, with can all easily contribute 4 or 5 to the global unhappiness, instead of the 3 for most civs. Especially puppet cities are bad, as they generally don't grow well because of the gold focus, and they might not build enough to maximize local happiness.

I think you have to raze conquered cities more than usual. Cities under size 6 are a severe liability.

For me, this means that India is severely limited in late-game options... This penalty means that a more aggressive late game is very difficult to sustain as India.

I think late game warmonger for India is limited to after you get the free courthouse tenet from Order. (Is that a level 2 or level 3 tenant?) Even then, you prolly want to raze anything below size 6. So, I agree that there is a large portion of the game where India cannot afford to warmonger. And one cannot go Order every game. But my take-away from Megabears analysis is that aggressive late game (maybe later than you had in mind) should very much be sustainable as India.
 
I don't think you had the numbers right. Assuming on standard map size:
1. Each city has 3 global unhappiness. For Gandhi we have 6.
2. Unhappiness from citizens in a city is 1 per citizen. For Gandhi we have 0.5 per citizen.
3. Special mechanic: excess local happiness for Gandhi is converted to global happiness such that local * 2/3 = global.

Note that I say excess happiness.

e.g. city of size 12 with 12 local happiness
for normal civs you have 3 global unhappiness because it's local unhappiness is completely covered.
for Gandhi we have 6 global unhappiness from the city, and 6 excess local happiness --> 4 global happiness. so that comes out to 2 global unhappiness.

Unless the mechanics changed for Gandhi since he was released, I think this is the way happiness is managed. Of course, he's not good for warring and making puppet empires with small cities, and small cities should get razed unless they have good location regardless of the civ you're playing.
 
Moderator Action: Moved to General Discussions
 
Can someone explain to me how this is not a "strategy and tips" thread? (or do moderator actions come with a gag order?)

@sennec I realize that India = tall, but at least for me tall means that you have 3-4 cities *until the late game*. Most other civs can acquire enough hapiness/money from luxury trading and tenets to expand beyond their core, and the benefits of keeping small become less strong in the later game as all useful national wonders are built and new cities can be brought up to speed quickly by cash buying and/or internal caravans, and the caravans to your capital are getting diminished returns. So, at least for me, tall vs wide is an early game decision, and in late (or even mid) game you act according to the situation.

@sessy A size 12 city contributes 6+6 unhappy, and has a local happy cap of 8, so you are left with 4 unhappy. You can check this quite easily by comparing the contribution to unhappy and local happiness in the city overview screen.

@beetle I did read that guide, but he still assumes that the 'break even' point is 6, which is only the case if you have abundant global happiness. This is likely true in the early game, but in my experience not in the late game, especially once you start losing traded luxuries due to warmonger and/or ideology diplo penalties.

You are probably correct that with aggressive razing you can get further, but it still feels really strange that you need to grow a city to be able to make them happy enough...
 
Can someone explain to me how this is not a "strategy and tips" thread? (or do moderator actions come with a gag order?)

Not of interest to the "deity players".

@sennec I realize that India = tall, but at least for me tall means that you have 3-4 cities *until the late game*. Most other civs can acquire enough hapiness/money from luxury trading and tenets to expand beyond their core, and the benefits of keeping small become less strong in the later game as all useful national wonders are built and new cities can be brought up to speed quickly by cash buying and/or internal caravans, and the caravans to your capital are getting diminished returns. So, at least for me, tall vs wide is an early game decision, and in late (or even mid) game you act according to the situation.

The situation. I hate these universal laws people keep announcing. Never found a city after turn 200, Scout, scout, settler, tradition, Always get your third city up by turn 100,... blah. Nice three city start, no iron, no coal, no oil, no aluminium (if I cared). I founded a city for 28 oil around turn 300.

You are probably correct that with aggressive razing you can get further, but it still feels really strange that you need to grow a city to be able to make them happy enough...

They are a people vulnerable to loneliness.
 
Not of interest to the "deity players".

I guess I missed the part where "S&T" was renamed to "deity players". ;-)

I horribly dislike worker stealing and tradition milking my way to an early 200 finish, I'd much rather play more natural and actually fight my way to victory. Each to his own, I guess...
 
I guess I missed the part where "S&T" was renamed to "deity players". ;-)

I horribly dislike worker stealing and tradition milking my way to an early 200 finish, I'd much rather play more natural and actually fight my way to victory. Each to his own, I guess...

Same here, same here.

Worst part is that some of these "deity players" act like theirs is the only way this game should be played. :rolleyes:
 
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