Rate the Beliefs - part V: Reformation beliefs

I used Sacred Sites with a wide Liberty/Piety empire, alongside a religion with Pagodas and Cathedrals, and the results were broken. I was influential with half my opponents LONG before the real tourism game is supposed to start. Anyone who picks a different ideology is going to implode and I'm looking at a cultural victory before hotels and the like become available.
 
I just wanted to ask a clarification question, would using 2 inquisitors fully remove the religion or reduce it to 1/4th of its original value? I would expect the latter, but that's super strong sounding.

Drop it to 1/4th.

It's actually not that strong. For example say you fully convert an 8 :c5citizen: population city so that it now has 8 followers. The owner responds with a Great Prophet, reducing you to 4 followers. They use it a second time, you now have 2 followers. Third time will remove it to 1 follower, and a fourth would totally remove your religion.

However, after the first Great Prophet/Inquisitor use, you use primacy in that city anyway, until a Great Prophet, Missionary, or religious pressure converts it over.

Beliefs that rely on cities following (Church Property, Ceremonial Burial) won't find any use out of this belief. Beliefs that rely on followers (Tithe) don't suffer as deeply.

The only civilization that fully benefits from this is Indonesia who wants all religions present in their city to gain bonus faith from the Candi or Papal Primacy Diplomacy players. Everyone else can pass for the more important Jesuit Education, Heathen Conversion, Charitable Missions, or To the Glory of God.
 
I'm wondering if maybe the point of Underground Sect is for civs that plan on going diplo wins by rigging elections, so you stay in power longer after a coup (assuming your spy was there long enough to flip it to your religion).

Not saying that's a good way of doing it. And in any case Charitable Missions is probably better anyways, and it's still worse than most other reformation beliefs even in that case. Just looking for applications.
 
I'd like to start playing with Sacred Sites to see how soon after the first World Congress I can become influential with the rest of the world. I tried it out last night and ended up with about +50 tourism while the rest of the world were around +12 but it still wasn't enough to go for an early culture win.

I think an earlier poster is correct, though, that it replaces artifact hunting as part of the culture win, allowing you to focus on the aesthetic tree to start spamming out Great Musicians.

EDIT: Jesuit Education is still my favorite.
 
0 - Religious Fervor: Use Faith to purchase Industrial Era (and later) land units.

The prices were crazy when I tried this in my game. You must have huge amounts of faith to purchase units with this belief. If they lower the costs it might be worth taking.
 
0 - Religious Fervor: Use Faith to purchase Industrial Era (and later) land units.
The prices were crazy when I tried this in my game. You must have huge amounts of faith to purchase units with this belief. If they lower the costs it might be worth taking.

Give votes between 0 and 5, where 1 is worst and 5 is best, like this:
5 = Excellent
4 = Very good
3 = Good
2 = Decent
1 = Poor
0 = Bad or Very Bad
4char
 
_ - The Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person starting in Industrial Era. Rated a 10/5

Rest of them are garbage. Mass faith with pilgrimmage and faith from wonders, desert folklore being an added bonus. Rake in the Faith, spam the world with 30% cheaper missionaries, and 20% discount from piety. Come industrial era, you just buy your great people with faith. Pound out great writers/musicians/artists, and watch your culture skyrocket. Need to get ahead in tech, get 4 or 5 scientists to boost you, stockpile great engineers to snap up the good wonders, and when you cant spend your faith anymore, buy great generals and start making great walls.
 
I've tried only one:

Heathen Conversion

I took it because I had an isolated start and knew that barb camps would be around long enough. The great part about this Reformation belief is that, if you rush Piety right from turn 1 (which I did, as I was playing the Mayans and knew I'd get good faith-yield while building the UB), it ends up being a barb-broom: just sweep one missionary through the unsettled lands near-by and that one missionary can rake in over 10 units or more, so long as you leave the actual camps alone until the AIs begin to spread towards you. I ended up with 2 horsemen, 4 warriors, 2 handaxe and 3 pikes before the camps were cleared.

Heathen Conversion is economical, though, only if you intend to go Piety immediately, and only really if you know there will be barb camps for a while after you pick it. This means I only give it a 2, because it's not very frequent that it will pay off to take this rather than something else for a Reformation belief. But if you think about it, so long as you have a high enough faith yield and get a religion quickly AND rush Piety, you can end up with a 200-faith investment that pulls in the equivalent of several thousand gold or a significant number of those precious turns of early production.
Interesting.

This begs the question of how early can one expect to get a Reformation belief?
 
OK, time to put on the trusty Captain Obvious uniform again.

Most people here haven't sampled many, or maybe even any, of the beliefs. Of them all, most would just see one that helps rush science and zero in on it. Because Civ is not about experimentation, it's about running one sure-fire strategy into the ground so you can say you beat the game routinely on immortal or Deity.


Charitable Missions: Influence boosts from Gold gifts to City-States are increased by 30%.


We'll give it a 3. Everyone of course has billions of gold laying around in the late game. Everybody knows that, right? So, who needs to be efficient about saving sand off of a beach?


Evangelism: Missionaries' Spread Religion action erodes existing pressure from other religions.

Oh, we gotta give that a 1. Everybody knows you don't spread your religion all that enthusiastically. You don't need surgical precision. You just get an enhancer like Itinerant Preachers or Religious Texts and just take the butt of our religion and smash it into everyone's face, be they friend or foe, civ or city-state.


Heathen Conversion: Missionaries convert adjacent barbarians to this civilization.

Oh, 1. Big-time fail. Everybody knows Germany's UA is bad, therefore this one is bad. Barbarian spawning is unreliable. All things that arent sure-fire get a 1. 'Nuff said.


Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith.

Is there a mobius strip on my keyboard? Guess not. OK, then let's say 1,000,000,000. I assume the only reason we even have to discuss the rest is in the event the AI gets it first. Which it will, because we all know that we all play on Diety and we never get anything first.


Religious Fervor: Use Faith to purchase Industrial Era (and later) land units.

Hmm. Lemme think about this. JK! 1! Build units with faith? Absurd! As I stated, by this point in the game we've likely shoved down our religion down every passerby's throat, friend or foe--in fact, shoving it down someone's throat probably turned some friends to foes, but are we supposed to do? Not shove? Everybody knows that's dumb.


Sacred Sites: All buildings purchased with Faith provide 2 Tourism each.

It's either 1 or 5. Tourism is all-or-nothing. You either are pursuing a CV and need every iota of tourism you can scrape together, you're not pursuing a CV, in which case tourism is worthless, having no secondary uses that grant it value as a currency.


The Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person starting in Industrial Era.

5. Here's "the other good one". GS! GE! GS! GE! GS! GM....err, whoops, typo. Everybody knows GM's are terrible.


Underground Sect: Your spies exert religious pressure on the cities they occupy.

1. It might go as high as 2 in another universe, but because there other things here that are better, via the magic of transitive properties this mediocre belief is made terrible.


Unity of the Prophets: Inquisitors and Prophets reduce this religion's presence by half (instead of eliminating it).

Pfah. 1, natch. Buy a single inquisitor and then just dance him around everywhere. Or DoW any civ that pulls this nonsense. The fact that the AI can't fight means that you never waste resources buying scalpels. Everybody knows that.

:)
 
5 - Charitable Missions: Influence boosts from Gold gifts to City-States are increased by 30%.
2 - Evangelism: Missionaries' Spread Religion action erodes existing pressure from other religions.
1 - Heathen Conversion: Missionaries convert adjacent barbarians to this civilization.
5 - Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith.
4 - Religious Fervor: Use Faith to purchase Industrial Era (and later) land units.
3 - Sacred Sites: All buildings purchased with Faith provide 2 Tourism each.
4 - The Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person starting in Industrial Era.
1 - Underground Sect: Your spies exert religious pressure on the cities they occupy.
2 - Unity of the Prophets: Inquisitors and Prophets reduce this religion's presence by half (instead of eliminating it).
 
8 - Charitable Missions: Influence boosts from Gold gifts to City-States are increased by 30%.
You tend to be broke if you do shrines and temples, which you probably did if you are this deep into piety, so this is less useful than it seems. It is a big boost though. Religion is a good plan for a diplomatic win as it lowers influence decay, so specializing here and piling on Patronage is a good strategy.

7 - Evangelism: Missionaries' Spread Religion action erodes existing pressure from other religions.
A lot better than it looks. Lets you punch out a fraction of their religion before spreading. Night and day difference for a latecoming religion like byzantine. Early on, it is nearly useless, but once all cities are deeply seeded, you get to smile as you flip a contested city in one spread and they burn 3 spreads to get inferior results. The only trouble with it is that founder beliefs aren't that great, so getting a larger chunk of the world to be your religion isn't that great. Still, this lets you share religion with key civs for an ally/peace, 25% tourism for a culture VC, fulfill CS quests with missionaries instead of prophets, and more, so it's very good.

3 - Heathen Conversion: Missionaries convert adjacent barbarians to this civilization.
A faith based way to combat rebellion from being -10 happy and a new archer farming barb camp sort of tactic. Decent for a warmonger who is frequently razing cities. But if you are holding at -10 happy enough to get more than a wave or three of rebels, you have bigger problems. In the later eras, missionaries are rather expensive for solely this purpose, great people are better, but if you took say -30% cost on missionaries, this can be fairly nice for supplementing an army even late in the game. It is a problem of timing. In medieval/renaissance when you would take this belief, there aren't many or any barb camps left. A risky, questionable pick, considering the great alternatives, such as:

10 - Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith.
This is a monster scientifically just to have everything right away, especially in production poor cities. There is enough to build already, and this unclogs a lot of the renaissance/industrial issues of too much to build, right on time. Resolves the "I need a workshop and university yesterday" debate, AND the factory/public school debate. A peaceful builder types wet dream, since you can branch out and try less essential wonders and buildings. And great for warmongering too, since you'll have high tech units and free up hammers to build them with, too. It also solves the problem of avoiding expensive forced great prophet pops in the renaissance. Just plain great.

2 - Religious Fervor: Use Faith to purchase Industrial Era (and later) land units.
Edit: Just tried it. They are wayyy too expensive. But it is versatile. In war, being able to restore your front line and pile on may make the difference between a costly stalemate or a decisive victory. In a pinch, like a backstab, more rush defense is always great. Buy walls with money, units with faith. But if you can go without in a war, and should you scout and use diplomatic resources instead, great people are a significantly better way to spend your faith. Having access to this alternative is nice, though there are better options, to be sure.

5 - Sacred Sites: All buildings purchased with Faith provide 2 Tourism each.
Situational. If you got 2 buildings for a follower, this is pretty darn good, but good luck enhancing into a second faith building, the AI loves them. Religion, warmonger, wide all go together, which makes this a non-bo combo with a peaceful cultural VC that is usually tall. It is a lot of tourism, however, which can support a rogue autocrat bent on world domination... muhaha... sorry. Seriously though, getting to exotic or familiar culture class with a powerhouse culture civ can buy you a few more dozen turns where you are happy and conquering, delaying the revolution just long enough for you to win a domination VC (or at least kill the offending oppressive ideology with fire).

9 - The Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person starting in Industrial Era.
Absolutely fantastic. In my last byzantine game I bought 18 great people with this belief, 3 artists, 3 musicians, 4 writers, 4 great scientists, 3 great engineers, and a great merchant (needed fast money). Versatile & powerful. The wider you go, the better this is, temple spam giving access to great engineers without full tradition, great scientists without full rationalism, and making up for slow cultural GP production to boot, meaning you are free to cherry pick the best of the best policies or just the most relevant from each tree, which is quite powerful. You can do things such as Rationalism just down to secularism(specialist) & free thought(uni+TPsci), commerce just down to mercantilism(25% discount), Tradition just down to aristocracy (happy by pop, 15%wonder), Exploration just to Naval Tradition(+happynavybuilding) & Maritime Infrastructure (+3hammers coastal)

2 - Underground Sect: Your spies exert religious pressure on the cities they occupy.
Bleh. Although I'm not sure how much pressure it adds because I've never taken it. If it is less than 30-50, it's questionable. Tech stealing is more important than religious spread, and spies tend to go to holy city capitals, where this is useless.

5 - Unity of the Prophets: Inquisitors and Prophets reduce this religion's presence by half (instead of eliminating it).
A great way to eliminate someone's religion peacefully if you have open borders, send in a great prophet with a wave of missionaries behind. Knock out the religion with the great prophet, and seed it with tons of missionary pressure while it's empty. Repeat for all cities. If you are fast enough, with this belief, inquisitors won't save them. If they have high FPT, hold your religious army until industrial/modern, then get em with it; then they won't be able to afford inquisitors and if they settled their cheap prophets, you'll have them. With this reformation, high FPT, and a tactical spread, a worldwide religion isn't just a dream realized by the religious civs anymore (although it is of dubious worth because the founder beliefs aren't that great, but it's still really fun).
 
Interesting.

This begs the question of how early can one expect to get a Reformation belief?

Some numbers, Prince level, I could consistently be first to Pantheon, Religion, Enhance, and Reformation by Turn 86. Found two approaches, but the one I've tried is Stonehenge->Oracle. Gonna see if Great Library is actually faster.

But ya, usually grab opener + 3 policies by the time Oracle is finished which is usually the same time the 2nd Great Prophet pops up.

On higher than Prince, don't be surprised with trying to get first choices, and take whatever benefits happen to roll your way.
 
I tried a 2nd reformation now:

Jesuit Education.

In my most recent game, I was playing Poland on Emperor/Pangea, and was able to settle next to Mt Kalash (6 faith, 2 happiness) as well as build Stonehenge. I had a lot of faith, so after Tradition I closed Piety next, which the Polish UA helped to do in a timely manner. After debating, I picked this reformation, somewhat expecting that universities, just a few turns away once I'd finish Education, would cost a ton of faith.

But 160 faith for a University is not a ton of faith.

I was amazed that, so long as I stored up around 1,000 faith before each science building tech, I could rush-buy 2 or 3 of them each time. Even laboratories were only about 440 faith, which is not a lot by that late in the game.

I'd say Jesuit Education is possibly the greatest belief of any in the religious area of the game. Even had I not lucked-out and not hard-built/chopped Stonehenge, I still would have easily had enough faith to buy science buildings from a single religious Natural Wonder alone. All you have to do is remember to save some faith (and hopefully not spawn a Great Prophet) right before teching to Universities, Public Schools, and Labs.
 
Evangelism might actually be worth it late game I was thinking in a game when trying to super spread. being able to get world religion easier because you have the backing from a bunch of civs and being able to get world church for tourism if going for a tourism victory. Also it would be easier to keep it in city states and civs that have your religion for the majority of their cities like you more. It's hard to move in on cities that are already full of religions other then yours.
 
I just finished a Russian game i choose Sacred Sites (All buildings purchased with Faith provide 2 Tourism each.) My follower belief is Cathedral and +2 Happiness from Temple.

I actually was forced to take that reformation belief. Because other civs already took the Great Person and Jesuit education belief. Turns out it was GREAT when combined with cathedral. The moment i get Archeology I spammed dig sites and filled the cathedral artifact slots. No need to wait for Museum to be build (and additional slots if you museums are filled up), and then BAMMM! my tourism skyrocketed. I won cultural game by year 2001, before event a vote on World leader occurred. That +4 tourism per city is really rocks.
 
This thread is very helpful for anyone looking for reformation opinions. For those wondering, I haven't totalled it yet because there are only 10 sets of votes. I'll add my own to try and encourage people:



4 - Charitable Missions: This stacks nicely with the Patronage tree. Diplomacy is very powerful in BNW.

2.5 - Evangelism: With this missionaries basically become weak great prophets. Combine this with the Great Mosque of Djienne to basically have cheap great prophets. They still struggle with the fact they erode in enemy territory so you need to be playing peacefully and get open borders, but then erasing enemy religions will make you unpopular. The problem I have with this belief is that it is like an extra enhancer belief. This helps facilitate spreading your religion rather than making your religion more beneficial for your civ and therefore you forgo a more useful belief.

1.5 - Heathen Conversion: Yeah this isn't terrible, but it's very situational. Your new units have several benefits which was brought up earlier in the topic, you can even turn unhappiness to your advantage. That's still not worth it imo because being unhappy is terrible for your civ in more ways than a few barb units and the ability is still unreliable even if you retain a barb camp to spawn units. That's a big if, but the best case scenario is that this ability turns out to be the equivalent of being allied with a militaristic city state.

5 - Jesuit Education: Wow. The price of these buildings are affordable, which means that every city you ever create will be able to buy science buildings straight away. This does work if other civs have your religion as well though, so I guess spreading your religion is a double-edged sword (I don't know if they actually use it to make faith purchases of science buildings). This is great for your science though. You can dump a settler in a jungle, send a few food trade routes to it and instantly start churning out science. It's also great for a cultural game as it allows you to access archeologists quicker. To give you an idea of costs, public schools were around the same price as missionaries.

1 - Religious Fervor: This is the opposite of Jesuit Education, the units are TOO expensive. Unless you have a huge faith output, you might as well bypass this. Even as a warmonger you might as well go for Heathen Conversion for a free Militaristic city state. Or better, go for charitable missions so you can purchase friends to help your conquest.

4 - Sacred Sites: The best source of early game tourism. If you go piety you should be able to get Cathedrals (extra work slot) and pagodas, which means you get +4 tourism per city. If you have 6 cities that's 24 tourism in the early game, if you go wide it's even more. Early investment in tourism stacks quickly because of how long it's in effect, this is very powerful.

5 - The Glory of God: Finishing a tree for the great people is one of the best perks, having access to them all is insane. Yes, the prices rise quickly but you have access to them all. You get great

0 - Underground Sect: Poor. Your spies will either be too far away to make any difference or in a place where their difference is negligible. Also suffers from the fact it's designed to spread religion rather than make it more useful for your Civ. Evangelism is better than this in every aspect.

0.5 - Unity of the Prophets: This has some use in preventing enemies from taking back their Holy cities after you eliminate their religion. Also suffers from the fact it's designed to spread religion rather than make it more useful for your Civ. Evangelism is better than this in every aspect
 
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