[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

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I agree with Colonialfan, disease events could be great! Even if they don't have any health rate.

Again Ray, you only want ONE variable, "instead" of two, like in Civ4? I Civ4 you have two variables: health/unhealthy?

You're right about Forests!

Should we put it in the planned section? Well yes, but I don't know. Are we still talking of version 1, or version 2?

About rebalancing immigration, I agree. This is simple Xml stuff. It won't take us long to do it !
70 % of non-specialists... Why not ! I like the idea.
 
I agree with Colonialfan, disease events could be great! Even if they don't have any health rate.

Sure, random events are not that difficult to do and they increase atmosphere. :thumbsup:
(I just need to take the time to take a look at all the events already existing.)

Again Ray, you only want ONE variable, "instead" of two, like in Civ4? I Civ4 you have two variables: health/unhealthy?

Yes only one because it makes things a little easier to implement and from my opinion also easier to understand.
Things would be different, if I would use a approach with yields but Health is not a yield, but a calculated value.

Spoiler :

Technically Satisfaction and Health work a little similar like Attitude.
Calculation with a lot of partial values summed up. Eventually Types behind.
This gives a lot more possibilities and degrees of freedom, than the approach with yields would do.

A mouse-over on the value in City-Screen could display the partial values as info-box for better understanding how the summed up value was generated.

Something like:
-----------------------------------
-3 from city-size
-1 from many workers in factories
+1 from river
+2 from medicine
---
-1 Health
-----------------------------------


Culture is different to that.
Compared to Satisfaction and Health it is quite simple.
Also the old calculation of "Influenc Area" was based on yield Bells.


Should we put it in the planned section? Well yes, but I don't know. Are we still talking of version 1, or version 2?

Ok, I will put it on our list, as it seems generally accepted. :thumbsup:
(Details could always change.)

Which version do you want ? :)
(I just did not change it yet, because I was waiting for your feedback.)

I was thinking about this now:

B) Low Health rates will increase food consumption and result in little chances for death of colonists (usually only at very bad health-rate , don't worry)
C) High Health rates lowers Growth Threshold and result in little chances for spontaneous birth (usually only at very good health-rate)

About rebalancing immigration, I agree. This is simple Xml stuff. It won't take us long to do it !
70 % of non-specialists... Why not ! I like the idea.

Great ! :thumbsup:
(I have put it on our list.)

I really think it will add fun, because it does feel more realistic and makes the game a little more challenging. :)
 
I agree!:goodjob: However if 70% seems to high, we can change it afterwards. We must test 70% first and see if it's fun...

(I just need to take the time to take a look at all the events already existing.)
You mean: we just need to take the time to take a look at all the events already existing...;) Or are you thinking of a dll event? A python/xml event could work, don't you think?
 

Ok. :)

However if 70% seems to high, we can change it afterwards. We must test 70% first and see if it's fun...

Yes of course. :thumbsup:
As I said, details / values could always change. ;)
(Especially if testing shows that it negatively affects fun.)

You mean: we just need to take the time to take a look at all the events already existing...;)

Of course. :)

Or are you thinking of a dll event? A python/xml event could work, don't you think?

No, I was thinking of a simple python/xml event, too. :thumbsup:
 
Disease events do not exist at the moment, at least not in standard TAC which you want to use as a basis.

Players do not like to loose control over the game. If a random event just kills citizens, many players will be annoyed and will reload from the last save. Therefore a disease event must allow players to react, avoid or lessen the impact of the disease.

Offer alternatives, like paying money (for doctors, medicine) or reduced production rates in the city (sick leave for workers).

For one of our planned TAC scenarios, I chose a different way to implement diseases. I have created a disease as a unit promotion. The random xml/python event then adds this promotion to a unit, affecting the combat stats of this unit.
A unit with this "disease promotion" has a random chance to die every turn.
Entering a town with a specific building will heal the unit and remove the disease.

This is actually quite easy to do with XML/Python. However, the AI will not know anything about healing the unit, so the event is restricted to human players only.
 
Disease events do not exist at the moment, at least not in standard TAC which you want to use as a basis.

Players do not like to loose control over the game. If a random event just kills citizens, many players will be annoyed and will reload from the last save. Therefore a disease event must allow players to react, avoid or lessen the impact of the disease.

Offer alternatives, like paying money (for doctors, medicine) or reduced production rates in the city (sick leave for workers).

There are several aspects:

1. Events resulting from Health-Rate (good and bad) as part of the feature (Health)
2. Random Events to Europeans (that could also affect player)
3. Random Events to Natives

Yes, there should / will be choices in 1. or 2. :thumbsup:
For 3. Player might get informed.

.... the AI will not know anything about healing the unit, ...

That is the problem with most concepts about injuries and diseases. :)

KJ, me and others had come up with several - at first sight - really cool concepts and ideas about injuries / diseases and healing those.
(Injured/Diseased as Units, Injuries/Diseases as Promotions, ...)

All of these concepts were thrown away in the end because it would have been too complicated to teach AI how to handle the feature ...

The current feature "Health" might seem a little boring to other fancy ideas about Injuries/Diseases but at least I am pretty sure it will work for AI. :)
 
The limitation to human players only does not matter for the scenario it was developed for.
But it is one reason why I did not add a disease event to TAC. Although you suggested to add a disease event to TAC some time ago ;)
 
The limitation to human players only does not matter for the scenario it was developed for.

I did not want to judge your idea for the scenario. :)
I just wanted to explain, why the feature for "Health" does not use Promotions or Special Units.

Although you suggested to add a disease event to TAC some time ago ;)

I know.
We really had many crazy ideas with the event-system. :D
 
Ok, another idea.
(That might be really fun in multiplayer.)

Fighting for Independence together with another Nation

In Diplomacy/Trade-Dialog, there is a trade item "Fighting Independence Together".

You will only be able to trade this with AI if they really really like you.
Of course you could trade it with humans in Multiplayer too.

What this deal means:

If one partner A of this deal declares Independence, the other partner B will declare Indepence also.
Both partners will also declare War to the other partners King.

A will not be able to declare Independence if B is not able and vice versa.
(Meaning checking the Revolutionary Rates.)

Be careful with this deal !
(AI might cause your War of Independence before you really want it.)

If one partner has beaten his King the game is not over yet as long as the other King is not beaten also.

If one Partner is killed, both Kings will focus on the surviving one of course.

If both Kings are beaten, the game is won.
If both partners are still alive, they have both won the game.
(If only one partner alive, then only this partner has won.)

This deal can be made with only one partner.
The deal cannot be cancelled.
(Choose wisely who you ally with. :) )

Other effects of this deal:

Once you have this deal with an AI, it will be your best friend forever.
It will always declare war to anyone you declare war on or to anyone that declares war to you and of course it will never declare war to you.
You also cannot declare war to that AI anymore, of course.
(Maybe ussing Teaming in the background ...)

General Comments:

As I said, this could be fun in Multiplayer.
In Singleplayer it would probably not happen very often.
(Except in very hight Difficulty Settings, where AI might really be stronger than you.)

Implementation should not be too complicated.

This feature is not really important to me.
It is more a "Nice-To-Have" from my point of view.
(Meaning that I would rather put it in list "Undecided" which I would like to rename into "Archive".)

There was simply a time, when I was especially trying to do concepts / features to improve Multiplayer.
(This feature is one of the results ...)

Feature should be implemented as Game-Option.

Feedback ? :)
 
Hi everyone,
Players do not like to loose control over the game. If a random event just kills citizens, many players will be annoyed and will reload from the last save. Therefore a disease event must allow players to react, avoid or lessen the impact of the disease.

Offer alternatives, like paying money (for doctors, medicine) or reduced production rates in the city (sick leave for workers).
Ronnar's right. We should avoid killing units (not only in random xml/python events but also in standard health mechanisms). Do you agree Ray?

About AI understanding or not health mechanisms, I'm not sure. You probably know that better than me... However in Fall from Heaven II, units have such promotions I think.

Finally, your last idea sounds fun! :) However, it isn't historical at all. Maybe we should implement it as a game option (as "Permanent alliance" or "No restriction for Leaders"). What do you think? It really does seem fun, but not what one would expect in a "standard" game...
 
Ronnar's right. We should avoid killing units (not only in random xml/python events but also in standard health mechanisms). Do you agree Ray?

Actually this is already happening in another feature I created with TAC:
Indentured Servants and Criminals have random chances of "running away".
Which practically means that they are killed.
Nobody is really complaining about that. :)
(Most players like that feature.)

It is not like I want to kill masses of citizens with "Health"-feature.

There are simply (relatively) low chances for a random that this will happen if you do not take care of health.

Everything else would really not feel realistic for me ...
(I really do not think that anybody will complain.)

Also, if there is no real effect when not taking care of Health, then the feature itself really does not make a lot of sense.

Also, we can see in testing.
If you and other people would really not like it, then we would simply change it. :thumbsup:

About AI understanding or not health mechanisms, I'm not sure. You probably know that better than me... However in Fall from Heaven II, units have such promotions I think.

Generally AI does not understand anything it was not taught.
Creating good AI behaviour is probably the most difficult aspect in modding CivCol.

As I said, me and others had been brainstorming many cool concepts for "Injuries and Diseases" but in the end we always realized that
AI would simply not handle very well and I do not want to make a feature only for human players.

With the concept I have introduced I am pretty sure that I can teach AI how to handle it without bigger problems.
(I cannot say the same about any of the other concepts me and other modders had discussed ...)

Finally, your last idea sounds fun! :) However, it isn't historical at all. Maybe we should implement it as a game option (as "Permanent alliance" or "No restriction for Leaders"). What do you think? It really does seem fun, but not what one would expect in a "standard" game...

Yes, it is not historical.
But it also is not historical that the Dutch Colonies conquer North- and South-America and fight a War of Independence against their King.
Also the capital of the colonies was not called "Raycity". ;)

Question is "Does it fit into the atmosphere we want to have ?"

Generally it could be a game-option, of course. :thumbsup:
(I have adjusted the concept.)

But let us simply forget it for now.
(We can just put it into our "Undecided"-List / "Archive".

As I said, it is not even important for myself.
(It is just one of the many many concepts I have created over time ...)
 
Not historical, but might be fun in a multiplayer game. I guess my biggest hang-up other than the history bit, would be the forever binding aspect of the treaty with another power. I'm thinking of how America did not honor its treaty of alliance with France, and remained neutralwhen France went to war with England only a decade after the American Revolution ended. Although I believe our justification was that we had made the treaty with the French King and not the new French republic and therefore our treaty ended with Louis XVI's death. But that's a whole other topic!

Just throwing out an idea, if the feature makes the to do list, could any such treaty be either for x amount of turns rather than perpetually binding, or could you have an option to break it at the risk of your former partner declaring war on you?
 
Not historical, but might be fun in a multiplayer game.

Yes, in Single Player this feature is probably not very interesting.
But could be fun in Multiplayer if you play with a friend, for example.

I guess my biggest hang-up other than the history bit, would be the forever binding aspect of the treaty with another power.

It is just that otherwise I believe that the feature might be abused for "cheat-strategies".
(Getting the benefits from the pact for a while and then simply cancel it, when you don't want it anymore.)

Just throwing out an idea, if the feature makes the to do list, could any such treaty be either for x amount of turns rather than perpetually binding, or could you have an option to break it at the risk of your former partner declaring war on you?

Maybe the "declaring war" could be some kind of alternative ...

I think we should discuss the feature again, if we really consider implementing it (or a variant).
(I don't think we will have it in one of our first releases, maybe we won't do it at all ...)
 
Nobody is really complaining about that.
You're right Ray! Maybe we could simply add a warning text before anyone gets killed (e.g. you health rate is dangerously low etc...)

Anyway we seem to agree.

Since we're talking about Multi-player games I'd also like to add new maps and map options. It's quite easy (I think) to adapt Civ4 maps...
Could we add a "mirror" map (Mirror.py) for multiple games? A continents map? etc...
I would also like to be able to change the number of continents and their shape etc...

There are many bugs in standard Civ4Col. Standard map generator doesn't generate bonuses on peaks even if you "ask" him to do so! Ice features often block your ship, which means you often have to go all around the entire continent. And if you choose "sea level: low" you don't have many "Europe West" plots on west coast...

I don't know if TAC has changed those features, but if not, I would like to change them.
By the way, has anyone tried to improve the advanced start option? We should be able to "buy" colonies/units/and even bells... If not we should probably remove that option, don't you think? For now it is useless, so why keep it. We should either improve it or remove it.;)
 
Maybe we could simply add a warning text before anyone gets killed (e.g. you health rate is dangerously low etc...)

Yes, sure. :)
We should have warning texts when health rate in a city is very low. :thumbsup:

Since we're talking about Multi-player games I'd also like to add new maps and map options. It's quite easy (I think) to adapt Civ4 maps...
Could we add a "mirror" map (Mirror.py) for multiple games? A continents map? etc...
I would also like to be able to change the number of continents and their shape etc...

Yes, good idea. :thumbsup:
But we should do that after we have added "Light Green Savanna" and all the new Bonus-Ressources.

There are many bugs in standard Civ4Col. Standard map generator doesn't generate bonuses on peaks even if you "ask" him to do so! Ice features often block your ship, which means you often have to go all around the entire continent. And if you choose "sea level: low" you don't have many "Europe West" plots on west coast...

If these problems still exist in TAC, we should fix them. :thumbsup:

By the way, has anyone tried to improve the advanced start option? We should be able to "buy" colonies/units/and even bells... If not we should probably remove that option, don't you think? For now it is useless, so why keep it. We should either improve it or remove it.;)

Sorry, I do not understand what you mean ... :confused:
(Where is that "advanced start"-option you are talking about ?)

But generally, I will put two points on our List "Planned":

  • Adding new Maps and fixing problems with exisiting Maps
  • Improving Game Options
 
what is the code for learning by doing?

In the Sources of TAC just search for:
// TAC - LbD - Ray

If you have further questions, just write me a privat message. :thumbsup:
 
Ah, now I get it. :)
(I did not understand that you were talking about the "Era"-Setting.)

But be careful, there are effects by choosing the Era !
(See CIV4EraInfos.xml.)

It is not useless, although most players will probably not change it.
(I do not think we should remove it.)
 
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