[Guide] Freedom's Science Victory

Acken said:

The city you want to buy the GS in must have a religion (not necessarily yours).

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Thanks Acken. Never knew that but makes sense I suppose.

I was surrounded by fanatics (Celts, Ethiopia, Arabia, Morocco) plus Venice the whole game with most of the early game being converted back and forth but by the late game there was no predominant in any of my three cities.

If in a low faith game, thoughts on whether to:
a) Buy a cheap missionary (when religious)
b) Buy a cheap inquisitor (when religious)
c) Buy a cheap prophet (when religious)?

I'd managed to scrape 1400 faith (after spending 300 on a pagoda). Might be that 300 would have been better spent on one of the above?

(Of course, I could also DOW someone and capture a GP but on Deity with a defensive military, probably not a great idea).

None of these would have made much a difference, going with a prophet though could have given you a shrine for more faith if you plant it early. Inquisitor is fine if you really like your religion bonuses.

Acken said:

going with a prophet though could have given you a shrine for more faith if you plant it early

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Can you faith-buy GPr if you don’t found?

RaidandTrade said:

I was surrounded by fanatics...

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In that situation, I feel like I have to put more work into managing my religion than when I do found my own! It can be quite annoying. There is tool tip text before spreading, but I am not sure that helps you tell inquisitors apart.

Might be that 300 would have been better spent on one of the above?

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I would say no, because the faith buildings are an excellent value when you get them early. That pagoda got you more faith than you spent to get it, plus the happy and culture on top of that. I would even argue that the faith-purchased building are worth more than one or two GE or GS.

by the late game there was no predominant in any of my three cities

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That can easily happen once the AIs use up all their cheap GPr buys. Once you hit the industrial age, a city only needs a religion for one turn to faith buy a GP. You get the notifications (X city has adopted a religion), so if you have the faith banked, don't pass up the mid-game opportunity to spend it.

beetle said:

Can you faith-buy GPr if you don’t found?.....

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Only founders of a religion can buy Great Prophets. Although you'll get one if you are the Maya, build HS, or complete Piety.

After multiple games I've come to refine it:
-You want to count around 40 turns between plastics and victory (for best times). This mean that you usually can aim for Apollo 20-25 turns post plastics.

-This may give you time enough to reach fertilizer and medical labs. If your money game is going great I seriously suggest you buy hospital and labs. This will give you additional beakers to cut down extra turns. This is mostly if you were able to get Mercantilism.

-The ideal path after plastics seems to be:
Fertilizer, Biology, Penicilin, Dynamite, Railroads - Bulb until Apollo or Satellites - Bulb rest later counting approximately 1 GS bulbed per turn. This usually gives me a very good benchmark. If you can try to use a GE for Hubble either by generating one at the last minute or with extra faith.

-On Deity RAs are definitely worth it. Try to get them at the right times (before changing eras, for them to end before the end). A quick PT is definetely recommended if you'll make RAs. I still suggest you get your science buildings going first with your money but extra gold should go into RAs as top priority on Deity. The ration of gold per beaker generated is really not that bad. More extra turns cut here.

-Make some extra calculus for your GS generation and see if it would be worth it to invest into Red Fort and/or Brandenburg gate. Based on the expectation of 35-40 turns after plastics see if it would generate an extra GS or not. Freedom allows a late Apollo so you often have the time to build these wonders after plastics and before the 8 turns of building science before bulbing.

I'd have to update the OP at some point

Red Fort and Brandenburg? Why?

+GS points. Might help make your last GS come a little faster. This is definetely very optional but I've been able to make my last GS spawn a few turn earlier with this and it helps.

I definitely need to count the total amount of GSs I make in a science game, so I can compare. In the DCL6 I honestly think I hit the limit, because I had Hubble, PT, a metric ton of faith and Order lv3. But, going Freedom and one more GS would have made it well under 250. I suppose one way of doing that is to gamble on the PT

I usually generate 8 or 9 + extras (with normal civ, babylon generates more).

I almost never gamble on the PT. The PT pays for itself in around 25 turns so if you build it 25 turns before the end in the city that will generate your last GS (so 8th or 9th) you have lost nothing by not delaying PT. Well unless you have two cities very close to each other in GS generation and then PT would delay the other one too much.

Also I'm liking RAs again and PT boosts them.

PT quite often goes before T180, that's what I meant by gambling on it

Yeah well 180 is late. I often try to start it as soon as I get architecture

It's very late, but that's the point. If you don't plan on using RAs much, then basically all you need the PT for is to get a GS faster. It's a gamble NOT to build it, if you get it out early, it will delay your other GSs, if you wait for it and get a really late GS (when it would otherwise take 15+ turns), it will usually have been built.

At least that's how I see it, feel free to correct

That's my earlier point. If you make PT early, it pays for itself in GP points. So if it's carefully placed in the right city, the last one to naturally make a GS, you'll get an extra as if you "gambled" by delaying it until the right moment. The other cities while also delayed by 100points by the PT should be able to still catch up the 100points (4turns delay) if they were not the last to make a GS.

I think I also explain in the OP.

For sake of clarity.
Say you have 4 cities and it will take 25 turns to make the last GS in city D.
Let's say City A has a GS in 4 turns, B in 8 turns, C in 16turns, D in 25turns.

Let's also assume your GPP bonus is 100% so that PT gives 4 GPP and every city makes 25GPP. The smart move is to make PT in city D.

If right now you get PT, every city GS will be increased by 100/25=4 turns so:
A in 8, B in 12, C in 20. D however gets 100GPP from PT therefore D is still due in 25turns.

As you can see after 25 turns you have the same amount of GS as before + 1 from PT. The same as if you had waited and took the risk to miss PT.

The only possible problem is if city C and D are appart from each other by less than 100GPP (25turns * 4). Because then city D will generate before C with PT and city C then becomes the last one with some added points which can create an issue if your plan was very tight.

I'll say this... I have never even thought about it this far but I love that some of you do because now I am learning that it is better at times to build the PT in city 4,3, or 2 instead of just in the capital as I usually do. Also I never thought about planning it out to the end so that I get an extra GS which makes a lot of sense because in some games you will find that no AI goes into Rationalism or has the desire to build PT.

Where I struggle the most because I play a very low spt game for most of my game is the ability to save your GS's. I usually find for my style that I need to use them to bulb Scientific Theory or maybe help me to get to Radio faster or because I am going to get Artillery around turn 190-205 I need to bulb one or two to be able to Oxford Dynamite faster. I know that my style is far from optimal but if you do play a lower spt/higher production game in the first 100 turns you will find that you can't research techs in a timely matter but as always you can steal your way to the top if you enjoy using your spies to steal techs which some players frown upon but I do not. I really enjoy using Industrial Espionage inside of Autocracy which if you are 10-15% behind on the average can really catch you up quick.

I can't answer Ackens original post but I do agree it is difficult to figure out when and how to bulb. I also notice that if I pre-assign my techs on the tech tree that when I bulb it will overflow to the next tech. However, if I do not plan them out in the tech tree it will automatically put the overflow into a certain tech that I usually do not want. The same seems to work on RA's. You kinda have to notice when your RA is going to be up so you can switch your tech so it doesn't fizzle out on your 2 turn tech that you are researching.

Correct me if I'm wrong, F.A., but I've always assumed that in your science games you are less than fully peaceful, right? I think that is where the most turns get added. I've been trying different strategies than my usual lately, and I've found that KB is mostly right about no bribes and keeping the world at peace for SV and CV.

It is very true I usually never play a Total Peace type of game. On a second note I usually never play a Total War type of game. Recently I am finding that I will try to play peace for half of the game and War for the other half once I get an absurd advantage like Rocket Artillery vs. Cannons. For me, I need to have war in the game. When you play a game that has no War and is just so "Kumbaya" I can get really bored or frustrated because it kinda turns into a next turn next turn type of game. I do not knock or frown upon this style of game or player because they do some amazing things with fast finish times and amazing CV wins!

I do not want to lose any game but I will neglect science/growth and try early rushes because it will put my game into jeopardy of losing. I kinda like to be on the edge in my games where I could actually lose! I think I have proven that for sure, since I am one of the few players who will post up long write ups of how I lost and have no problem showcasing my horrible play and losing. My IDS #1 and IDS # 7 games are prime examples where I will not change my strategy and end up getting in very long stalemated wars and lose in the end but I find it fun and I guess I get a little ego driven no matter how far I am behind because even being 20% behind the average in tech is not a loss for sure since I have won many of games where I am behind that far.

Not really. In the DCL6 which happens to be my best game yet, Liz and I double teamed Harry and since I had all the buildings I needed in all cities, I proceeded to crank out Frigates while my bpt went up and up. Of course I didn't want to beat the daylight out of Harry because the whole point was to get the "fought a common enemy" green diplo so that Liz wouldn't bother me again.

As long as you don't face a full scale invasion in which your tiles get blockaded, a war is not that terrible. I still avoid it like the devil, natch, but I suppose a little scuffle isn't too bad

Ah, I was talking not about defensive wars or 'medium' wars, but the kind where F.A. goes and crushes a civ or two then goes back to the laboratory

I saw screenies of a game where KB challenged him to play peaceful and he was sticking it to the AI pretty hard! It looked like a warmonger game.

If you build units for defence, it's sensible, I think. But to build them for attack and use them, it's easy to get carried away.

Nowadays if I play peaceful, I don't use bribes, after KB recommended it, and I feel that it works out much better in the long-run just to build units.

LOL ... back to the Laboratory!! I like this analogy or analysis of my games!!

I was within the rules. I just made each AI DOW me individually by forcing a lot of red modifiers on them. I was within the rules but not within the idea or nature of the challenge so I just saved the game and decided not to finish or at least finish one of these days in the very long future. It was much harder because I could not DOW the AI or bribe them to DOW so it was taking longer and I might of been in Jeopardy of an AI Launch but I think I could of won that game with a late CV but it would of been through Domination kinda spoiling the true nature of the challenge. Egypt was way ahead building the PT 145 and three other wonders very fast I think Eiffel went off on 157 if I remember correctly so I was never going to win a Peaceful CV and my capital placement was a poor choice for that style as well but IMO that map was tricky for my first attempt.

So I just decided I was wrong and kb27787 was right and I just have to bow down to his style of play because it is not something that I like or can even enjoy trying which is what I found out trying to copy his style into my own. The problem is I don't like the idea of a Peace/Defense style of game. I want to be able to take it to the AI when I want to! So, it basically came down to a clash of styles and I have to admit his style is much harder to adapt than I once thought. I do believe that the Brazil Map that I tried was a tough one for Peaceful CV for my first attempt at it but that is ok that is only perspective since I am sure kb27787 thought it to be a very easy map for Peaceful CV.

Sorry about the hijack and off topic post. About the OP though. I have not tried it yet but I think I might one of these days soon and if you like you can also find "Acken's Freedom Strategy Guide" on the Stats site at the bottom of my post. Currently the only Guide listed.