Liberty Vs Tradition

Can you outline the benefits of that strategy?

Only you're banking your policies (for ?) and i'm coming at you with rushed longswords...

The reason why I rush Longswords is as much about defense as it is aggression.
 
It may sound crazy but I don't like the three early trees. They are cool but I want to spend points on other trees later on. I know that it would give you a disadvantage because EVERYONE ELSE pick those 3's. My strat is to scout -> RA spam -> get to later ages ASAP while expand moderately to take advantage of Piety deeper policies.

I play defensive so walls and garrisons are a must to defend cities from barbarians and other leaders. Since classical and renaissance is so short, imagine getting Patronage so early that you can buy off military city states to defend yourself. I don't know. I'm crazy I guess :crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye:
 
I build early walls too. Defensively brilliant and no maintenance costs which is also a good early game manouvre. I guess I've played multiplayer too much to not involve a longsword rush; never really considered a different strategy when playing against the AI only. Are you playing above prince level?
 
It may sound crazy but I don't like the three early trees. They are cool but I want to spend points on other trees later on. I know that it would give you a disadvantage because EVERYONE ELSE pick those 3's. My strat is to scout -> RA spam -> get to later ages ASAP while expand moderately to take advantage of Piety deeper policies.

I play defensive so walls and garrisons are a must to defend cities from barbarians and other leaders. Since classical and renaissance is so short, imagine getting Patronage so early that you can buy off military city states to defend yourself. I don't know. I'm crazy I guess :crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye:

why would you ignore oligarchy? for this strategy,this sp would be excellent to protect your homeland(I know you would sacrifice Patronage branch,but the cultural bonus of tradition might compensate it).
 
Can you outline the benefits of that strategy?

No its pretty stupid. But meh its his game. A free settler or GE is priceless. skip filling the whole tree if you want but skipping all of them is strategically dumb IMHO.
 
I actually thought of this last night. Saving up enough SPs to be able to open Rationalism and fill it right when you hit Renaissance. Or getting Scholasticism without having to wait. Yeah, I think you're suffering a little at first, but I hardly call missing out on a free settler or GE dumb, when you can go deep into a tree when you first enter an era. I'm going to try it.
 
I think Liberty (with the exception of the 30% less social policy cost) is the short term gain tree, while Tradition is the long term gain tree (with the exception of free temples policy). Liberty is alot of bang for buck now, while tradition builds up over time. I suppose it depends on how you view things, if you are willing to take the short term gain over the long term benifits. Personally, I'm greedy, so i try to go for both.
 
No its pretty stupid. But meh its his game. A free settler or GE is priceless. skip filling the whole tree if you want but skipping all of them is strategically dumb IMHO.

It is definitely not pretty stupid. If I didn't wish to play by the base rules (aka no SP saving or promotion saving checked), I would save 3 policies to take scholasticism as soon as I were to unlock medieval. The first 3 trees suffer from a lack of scaling through the game, exception to Professionnal Army(PA) in the honor tree. Their strength is to help skip a build or two (monument or worker, settler) very early in the game to hopefully catch key buildings at key points in time.

Playing on deity, I got sick of no 6-iron starts for domination or early rush leveraged games so I found myself to play the PA path to convert a no-iron start into a rifles rush without harm through the pikemen upgrade path, thus it is very doable to win a dom/warmongering based game without any big early buff.

For science or pacifist diplo game approach, I would absolutely save my first 3 SPs to get both scholasticism and the left part of rationalism much earlier in the game to get a solid tech lead and CS allying.

The only time I would go meritocracy regardless of SP saving is to rush stonehenge for a cultural victory...and even then I'd probably play around a couple games to see if there is a way that I can hard build it consistently on deity...I just don't think it's really an option unless I play as egypt and settle marble though -_-


I can see why Col. Bogey sees it being really bad in multiplayer though. Meaculpa I don't really play MP but if I can sign 2 RAs with the AIs on MP, then it is very easy to counter a 4 LS rush without using any of my early SPs

*edit* fixed some major typo
 
I think Liberty (with the exception of the 30% less social policy cost) is the short term gain tree, while Tradition is the long term gain tree (with the exception of free temples policy). Liberty is alot of bang for buck now, while tradition builds up over time. I suppose it depends on how you view things, if you are willing to take the short term gain over the long term benifits. Personally, I'm greedy, so i try to go for both.

Don't exactly agree with that tradition builds up overtime...it has nothing really scaling. They each provide similar results. The main reason why more players go meritocracy is because of how versatile it is. Also because LE is very underestimated but that's a different topic -_-
 
I think Liberty (with the exception of the 30% less social policy cost) is the short term gain tree, while Tradition is the long term gain tree (with the exception of free temples policy). Liberty is alot of bang for buck now, while tradition builds up over time. I suppose it depends on how you view things, if you are willing to take the short term gain over the long term benifits. Personally, I'm greedy, so i try to go for both.

I disagree that liberty is for short-term gain. In fact, I think Liberty sets you up better for long-term dominance. The settler & worker policies really get the expansion going, and although the benefits of the policies themselves may not be as important later in the game, the fact that your cities & improvements were built much faster really hastens the snowball effect. And let's not forget representation, which keeps your policy cost down a bit and lasts all game. Meritocracy & republic are a bit more "short term" policies but then again, a free wonder that early can have great lasting value.
 
Don't exactly agree with that tradition builds up overtime...it has nothing really scaling. They each provide similar results. The main reason why more players go meritocracy is because of how versatile it is. Also because LE is very underestimated but that's a different topic -_-


I believe this statement contradicts itself. Tradition indeed has nothing BUT *edit* scaling *edit* benefits, with the value of those depending on it's fit to strategy.

*edit* In retrospect this is not correct, legalism does not truly scale, and is more of a 'bootstrap' sp

LE, which you mention, is the most powerful and obvious of these. Any percentage gain of any resource is scaling, and 2+ 15% is most definitely that.

Monarchy(?) provides 50% less unhappy in your capitol as well as money per pop point. It scales very well, just forces you to get the gain out of only one city and force growth there.

Legalism- most debatable point. I'd argue it scales because you can use tricks (picking songhai and rushing philisophy/hard build monuments before picking) to increase it's productivity steal. It does however cap out very quickly. The two behind it are very powerful however, and few social trees have more than three SPs you really want to pick anyways. Think of it as a gateway drug.

Oligarchy- 100% city attack strength + free garrison. Most definitely scales with the size of your empire, and much like LE, is actually best for large empires. You always have to keep some number of units in the rear to guard against the last city of someone you conquered, and flanking warmongers. This makes them all free, and much more likely to provide an effective defense. Still, probably strongest in MP compared to single.

? - Wonder building 20%. Can't remember the name of it for the life of me. Regardless, this scales not with the size of your empire, but with how many wonders you choose to build. Although if you expand enough you're almost certain to get a city with marble that you could theoretically production focus to get the most out of this SP. I like it's overall usefulness, but it's sometimes hard to argue for it instead of later piety and patronage policies.

Liberty I have much less experience with, I think of it more in terms of bootstrapping your empire growth than efficiency. It's harder to break its results into a numbers game!
 
Legalism- most debatable point. I'd argue it scales because you can use tricks (picking songhai and rushing philisophy/hard build monuments before picking) to increase it's productivity steal. It does however cap out very quickly. The two behind it are very powerful however, and few social trees have more than three SPs you really want to pick anyways. Think of it as a gateway drug.

A quibble, but a significant one - you don't need monuments to get Mud Pyramid Mosques. If you have legalism and settle a new city (one of your first four, of course) you get the MPM instantly as a free building.

re: cap - I usually limit my "core" cities to four, initially, and start on the SP multipliers down the Freedom track as I get the rest of the culture buildings coming online. I don't usually go over 6-7 core cities even on huge maps.
 
Ah, sorry about the confusion there, that's exactly what I meant. Legalism will build for each city the building with the lowest upkeep it can create, either at city creation or time of SP selection. Thus, if you hard build monuments in any/some cities before picking it and have philosophy, you will get temples in those that had monuments, and monuments in those that had nothing.

This goes even further. If you have a free upkeep building, it will prefer that over anything. So Songhai will get mud mosques as long as philosophy is opened before picking this SP, and anyone who has build access to monastary buildings would get those instead of a monument.

I assume this would extend out to the later culture buildings, but haven't tested it. Seems crazy. Even waiting for monastary really reduces the impact of that SP.
 
it's not lowest upkeep, it's the highest culture/cost available. burial tomb for example (0 maintenance) doesn't come before monument.
 

Mean but true. I mean come on, do we really believe that you can gain an advantage with no policies until x. Just not going to happen. Just isn't whatever the difficulty setting. An extra city very quickly, doesn't scale through time, oh come on. I'm willing to believe you can ignore most of the policies, but some are pretty useful to catch a wonder at the right time for a start, a GE is awfully useful when it gives you an expensive tech and a culture boost, plus quick culture scales to give you policies faster, added to an extra city. I mean really?

It's his game though, so who cares? :)

Hell try it out guys, but you'll have to replay it where you didn't use any to really gain any worthwhile information. I'm not buying it though 'til I've seen pictures. :p
 
I believe this statement contradicts itself. Tradition indeed has nothing BUT *edit* scaling *edit* benefits, with the value of those depending on it's fit to strategy.

*edit* In retrospect this is not correct, legalism does not truly scale, and is more of a 'bootstrap' sp

LE, which you mention, is the most powerful and obvious of these. Any percentage gain of any resource is scaling, and 2+ 15% is most definitely that.

Monarchy(?) provides 50% less unhappy in your capitol as well as money per pop point. It scales very well, just forces you to get the gain out of only one city and force growth there.


Liberty I have much less experience with, I think of it more in terms of bootstrapping your empire growth than efficiency. It's harder to break its results into a numbers game!

I don't want this to become a huge argument and whatnot but talking about generic opening policies involves neighter oligarchy or 20% to wonder policy. Each of those are insanely situationnal and disregarded for competitive play. Oligarchy is more of a MP defense/post .275 adaptation to improve a players' learning curve for the time being.

Back to LE/Monarchy.
LE is really the central piece of tradition. It is the main reason why tradition is competitive with liberty in most openers/strategies. It simply involves playing sightly differently like build order etc.

The 15%, even though it scales, only applies to the growth food. That is to the exceeding food used to grow the city. Because of that, it is usually a marginal gain all game along. Chances are, even after getting hospital in the late game and having every maritime CSs availible allied, that your capital will get maybe 4-5 extra food for growth through this. In the early game, it's almost never more than one extra food. Thus even though this part of the policy scales, the true strength of LE is in the +2 food in all cities. This significantly speeds up the growth in super small cities for expansive play and allows to work two lumbermills for free, increasing the production once you wish your cities not to grow anymore. In fact, even if you only have your capital, this can cover for a settled meritocracy GE production-wise and provide an extra 1gpt if both forests are riverside.

My comments with regards to the lack of scaling was more that once your cities are really tall, it's net effect is almost negligeable, thus it doesn't scale well in that way. On the other hand, it scales decent with expansion in the same way that 50% settler cost and 25% worker speed does. So both are solid in early game but slowly useless as the game goes on "aka my definition of lack of scaling" lies in that the policy becomes worse and worse as the game flies as opposed to keeping a similar relative potency.

Great examples of scaling policies would be theocracy/scholasticism/the +1 beaker/TP and +2beaker/specialist in rationalism etc.

Monarchy, I have to give you, is a scaling policy. This being said, it is lackluster in the early game and generally becomes a good pick later in the game when you suffer happiness issues to keep expanding/growing/warmongering etc. as such, it is really not a good pick in a "first 3 policies" perspective opener regarding liberty vs tradition.

I guess one could argue that it gives a plus value to picking tradition over liberty since it opens up an ok late-game happiness policy with decent scaling (scales to capital but not to whole empire again making it somewhat situational)


As you mentionned, liberty is definitely more of a bootstrapping policy tree. Huge instant benefits that become nearly useless somewhat fast in the game. It is very, very hard to truely math out and it is highly strat dependant. On the other hand, it is possible to argue that most instant benefits can be obtained through tradition by simply changing build order and working tiles differently. The only true exception is the wonder rushing/tech bubbling from meritocracy that can't be played any other way and that is part of so many strategies.

*Edit* I said it somewhat late in my post so I figure I will define what I mean by "lack of scaling" regarding a policy :
A policy lacks scaling if it becomes less and less potent as the turns pass. This means, a policy may have an actual clear mathematical scaling factor and still be lacking scaling over time, thus making a policy saving option more viable over the lenght of the game.

As such, legalism would be totally lacking scaling. You can see it's benefit in two ways. Either the total amount of hammers saved or the extra benefits in culture (given you would NOT have built those culture buildings if it had not been for legalism). The first approach is a flat number that never changes. The second approach gives a lot of extra CPT at the time of taking the SP but slowly less and less in proportion of your total empire culture as the time flies. Thus making it's benefit less and less potent over time.

*edit* fixed some major typo
 
Mean but true. I mean come on, do we really believe that you can gain an advantage with no policies until x. Just not going to happen. Just isn't whatever the difficulty setting. An extra city very quickly, doesn't scale through time, oh come on. I'm willing to believe you can ignore most of the policies, but some are pretty useful to catch a wonder at the right time for a start, a GE is awfully useful when it gives you an expensive tech and a culture boost, plus quick culture scales to give you policies faster, added to an extra city. I mean really?

It's his game though, so who cares? :)

Hell try it out guys, but you'll have to replay it where you didn't use any to really gain any worthwhile information. I'm not buying it though 'til I've seen pictures. :p

I will gladly play a deity game with policy saving up to prove you wrong. I stand by the other comment where I quoted you saying it was pretty stupid. It probably won't happen for a while though as the comp at my parents' place can't run civ5 :(.

Plan is: Arabia, any map...probably continent or pangaea for harder sub turn 100 defense. standard/standard. Small REX for different luxuries. I likely won't even do NC start and just do RAs to pop into medieval and dump gold into massive CSs w instant scholasticism. This will allow me to plow through tech, catch up and even pass most AIs. I'll see from there and go with the flow...hell I'll probably even do some warmongering just for fun since early scholasticism should leverage my game so hard that I will have most options availible.
 
It is definitely not pretty stupid. If I didn't wish to play by the base rules (aka no SP saving or promotion saving checked), I would save 3 policies to take scholasticism as soon as I were to unlock medieval. The first 3 trees suffer from a lack of scaling through the game, exception to Professionnal Army(PA) in the honor tree. Their strength is to help skip a build or two (monument or worker, settler) very early in the game to hopefully catch key buildings at key points in time.

Playing on deity, I got sick of no 6-iron starts for domination or early rush leveraged games so I found myself to play the PA path to convert a no-iron start into a rifles rush without harm through the pikemen upgrade path, thus it is very doable to win a dom/warmongering based game without any big early buff.

For science or pacifist diplo game approach, I would absolutely save my first 3 SPs to get both scholasticism and the left part of rationalism much earlier in the game to get a solid tech lead and CS allying.

The only time I would go meritocracy regardless of SP saving is to rush stonehenge for a cultural victory...and even then I'd probably play around a couple games to see if there is a way that I can hard build it consistently on deity...I just don't think it's really an option unless I play as egypt and settle marble though -_-


I can see why Col. Bogey sees it beeing really bad in multiplayer though. Meaculpa I don't really play MP but if I can sign 2 RAs with the AIs on MP, then it is very easy to counter a 4 LS rush without using any of my early SPs


I'm wondering though... Assuming you are not wanting to go for a culture victory, you could just avoid Tradition/Liberty and really early culture building in favor of expanding and/or building a decent amount of economy and military going. (using the hammers from monuments and investing them into works/scouts/settlers) To then kick in the culture a little bit later once Piety/Patronage unlocks?

You would end up with fewer social policies overall obviously (hence why I don't recommend it for Cultural approach to the game) but you could focus more of those SPs into either Patronage if you want to push a tech lead in the mid game, or Piety if you want to hulk smash.

My guess is you'd have to work a little on the timings in the opening but it seems interesting.
 
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