BNW Deity Tier List

Tibbz said:
I think you are underrating Greece. With consulates you get a quick cheap and insanely good boost to everything and doing a diplo victory with Greece is pretty easy. Not to mention their unique horseman replacement is amazing early on to wreck havoc with multi-pillage just completely destroy a civs production with the the 5 movement so early.
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I do agree that the diplomacy victory is a god tier civ.
However, that doesn't mean that all civs geared toward it deserve high tiers.

Consider the opportunity cost of not having Greece's UA in terms of gold, compare it with Portugal's gold bonus (throw in a k or two for the nau). It's fairly comparable. Portugal additionally provides much more flexibility since you can use gold on other stuff too so you inefficiently overload certain CSs with influence (by virtue of them having easier to complete quests) less.

It makes absolutely no sense to put Greece above Portugal imo. The UUs are not enough to move the needle.
 
If we were ranking the AIs, Alexander would absolutely be god tier. Not even sure why, but Greece is, in my opinion, THE most powerful AI opponent in the game - almost always when I face him, he's running away like Usain Bolt while all CSs in the map marvel at his sheer awesomeness. :p

The civ itself is fairly average though, I think.
 
Perhaps it's time for "rate the BNW AIs"?

I think what Greece does right is -
* he doesn't attack CS's and is a bit less likely to demand tribute from them, so he doesn't step on other AIs' toes that way,
* (in BNW) He doesn't rack up CS kills or poorly-chosen AI city kills, so he's not saddled with huge warmongering diplo hits,
* He builds enough cities to use the AI happiness bonus, but grows them tall enough not to be hamstrung by the research penalty,
* He has the units to defend himself,
* He is, of course, pumped up by all his CS allies.
 
For three years, I have spoken about Greece as an opponent that other civs should model after (in their production, economy and aggressiveness). It may be a slight bias as I have always had problems with them but the game can made more challenging simply by have more Greek-like opponents (using their own unique strengths, of course).

I do realize that initial vanilla release made Greece so god-tier to play (Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse) that playing against them have gotten overshadowed (relatively speaking).
 
One thing that I always wanted to undertand is how come the AI bonus escalate so quickly is they get another AI's capital very early. I always see Alexander lagging behind in science even when he is running away in pop, but there was this one game when I kept bribing Alex and Monty to fight each other, so they wouldn't notice me. Alex took Monty's capital around turn 70. Then, by the time I was researching Chivalry to build my Kasbahs, I saw a Greek Rifleman with some Gatlinguns coming at me...

And then there was the game when Casimir got Rio de Janeiro at turn 40 and entered the Renaissance at turn 85.
 
That sure is one hell of a peninsula you've got there. May as well have scripted the map yourself.
 
I like Polynesia, but I'm not sure how a single image will convince anyone that they're better than this list implies, especially since your location is ridiculously good. I don't know if they deserve to be on the same tier as garbage civs Indonesia and Denmark, but they aren't that great.
 
I'm sorry but I don't see anything outstanding impressive there. The only reason why you could sustain the growth is because you landed a peninsula. There are no rivers or lakes, "awful" growth beyond internal trade routes (which is partly peninsula luck based)

Your cities have very little production and workshops on T140 is quite late. You will have to use even more internal trade routes for hammer trade routes if you want to keep up with the CV infrastructure/archaeologist spam.

Don't get me wrong, the map edges and your city allocation/internal trade routes dance is making this start look very good but definitely far from a top tier civ. Even moreso since the absurd midgame CPT is "hiding" an increase in science that would otherwise kick in slightly later with other civs' starts.


I do believe they have significantly improved since GnK, thanks to the overall reduction of culture and to the impressive power of cargo ships but as with my Inca argument, if you can get consistent peninsula starts to minmax trade routes, you'll have a hard time pushing them up.

I don't see them as bottom tier, esp since improved map script and non Pangaea play where they can cross ocean for 5-10 tiles better city locations for cities 2/3/4 makes the cargo ship handling probable on many starts but well-defined peninsulas like the one you just got there are not consistent. If anything, maybe move them up one tier and keep the water map edge symbol but hardly more. The moai is far from guaranteed to be a viable spam.

From a deity perspective, they also tend to have extremely difficult starts to defend in the early game and not good enough starts (food/hammers) to detour for units and an early counterattack to offset the cost of early defense.
 
Nujabes said:
I like Polynesia, but I'm not sure how a single image will convince anyone that they're better than this list implies, especially since your location is ridiculously good. I don't know if they deserve to be on the same tier as garbage civs Indonesia and Denmark, but they aren't that great.
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Indonesia is outstanding if there are nearby "other continents" to settle. They're actually god tier on archipelago or similar extended map scripts (hell even a Pangaea extended map script with a bunch of 1-6 tiles island off shore around the world could do). They're nearly useless everywhere else :(
 
Indonesia is just a really poorly designed civ, and even on a water oriented map, I'd rather play the real naval civs, which is a shame.
 
I like Indonesia as a water-based domination civ. If you capital snipe with frigates you can have the spices end up underneath those cities, very useful for offsetting the happiness penalty from conquest.

I have nothing else good to say about Indonesia though (well, the peace theme is stellar). **** Kris Swordsmen and they're random promotions in particular.
 
Deau said:
I'm sorry but I don't see anything outstanding impressive there. The only reason why you could sustain the growth is because you landed a peninsula. There are no rivers or lakes, "awful" growth beyond internal trade routes (which is partly peninsula luck based)

Your cities have very little production and workshops on T140 is quite late. You will have to use even more internal trade routes for hammer trade routes if you want to keep up with the CV infrastructure/archaeologist spam.

Don't get me wrong, the map edges and your city allocation/internal trade routes dance is making this start look very good but definitely far from a top tier civ. Even moreso since the absurd midgame CPT is "hiding" an increase in science that would otherwise kick in slightly later with other civs' starts.


I do believe they have significantly improved since GnK, thanks to the overall reduction of culture and to the impressive power of cargo ships but as with my Inca argument, if you can get consistent peninsula starts to minmax trade routes, you'll have a hard time pushing them up.

I don't see them as bottom tier, esp since improved map script and non Pangaea play where they can cross ocean for 5-10 tiles better city locations for cities 2/3/4 makes the cargo ship handling probable on many starts but well-defined peninsulas like the one you just got there are not consistent. If anything, maybe move them up one tier and keep the water map edge symbol but hardly more. The moai is far from guaranteed to be a viable spam.

From a deity perspective, they also tend to have extremely difficult starts to defend in the early game and not good enough starts (food/hammers) to detour for units and an early counterattack to offset the cost of early defense.
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I dunno... (once those cities grow above a certain threshold) and hotels and airports come on line... he won't need any artifacts for CV :lol: As long as his national visitor center is built in the right city (not the capitol!)
 
Arachnofiend said:
I like Indonesia as a water-based domination civ. If you capital snipe with frigates you can have the spices end up underneath those cities, very useful for offsetting the happiness penalty from conquest.

I have nothing else good to say about Indonesia though (well, the peace theme is stellar). **** Kris Swordsmen and they're random promotions in particular.
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That's only if those capitals are on another continent, and only if I haven't founded my own spice islands. That's also a super small benefit compared to the unhappiness you'll eat for taking a capital.

Of course, the UA is the least of Indonesia's problems.
 
Nujabes said:
That's only if those capitals are on another continent, and only if I haven't founded my own spice islands. That's also a super small benefit compared to the unhappiness you'll eat for taking a capital.

Of course, the UA is the least of Indonesia's problems.
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By "water based domination" I'm specifically talking about Large Islands and other scripts where the other civilizations will always be on other land masses.

I should note that I'm really stretching for good things to say about Indonesia here.
 
peddroelm, 9 times out of 10, my large islands starts are not even as good as that Pangaea start. and even with this absolutely amazing start (for Pangaea).... Brazil's total tourism output will still be better on an average Brazil start.

tiers shouldn't be about who can roll the most godly start. otherwise, everyone's at least 10 tiers below Spain. I'll move Poly up one tier if people really want it. It still feels like you're just handicapping yourself vs. playing Brazil/France though. I'd hands down prefer every other civ on the "Lower Tier" to Polynesia. I think Polynesia's the best of the Bottom Tier... but still closer to Indonesia than Carthage.

not moving Indonesia. I've played them on an islands map and the UA is pretty amazing, but it's much more effective when you're actually settling viable land than random spots in the snow/tundra purely for the extra luxury to trade and maybe 1 strategic resource.
 
adwcta said:
not moving Indonesia. I've played them on an islands map and the UA is pretty amazing, but it's much more effective when you're actually settling viable land than random spots in the snow/tundra purely for the extra luxury to trade and maybe 1 strategic resource.
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Yeah, I don't think anyone is arguing that you should (I'm certainly not). Indonesia makes a pretty strong case for worst civ in the game, Denmark's free pillaging is probably more useful more often than what Indonesia has.
 
Will the Fall Patch be changing this any? I'm not sure if Japan or America are a lot better, but certainly got tweaked, while Germany and Indonesia have good boosts (Gardens everywhere is not to be sniffed at).
 
Tinker said:
Will the Fall Patch be changing this any? I'm not sure if Japan or America are a lot better, but certainly got tweaked, while Germany and Indonesia have good boosts (Gardens everywhere is not to be sniffed at).
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I missed out the change to Indonesia and America. I don't think the change to Japan will change anything because it is tied to boats and typically you don't boat fish in forever due to hammer cost. Plus, it kicks in too late to give an opener edge and +1 not scaling overtime is too weak to provide a large benefit in late game.

I believe Germany will get a slight edge to freedom oriented VCs/small&tall strategies but the UB doesn't appear game breaking. Rome has much better through passive UA imho although the prod bonus in cap is great for shaving a few turns off wonders/spaceship pieces. It may be enough to raise them one tier but I barely.
 
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