Ideas, Requests, and Feedback

Things I've noticed so far that I would like changed...


Crossbowmen are still unlimited build. Should have a national limit.

Forests and Jungles are still destroyed for certain civs when they settle their cities. Why do the elves not develop tree cities/jungle cities for cualli and mazatl?

The pedia entry for using the sacrifical altars for the cualli is somewhat unclear as to what it actually does.

Will edit as I see more things.
 
A few questions/suggestions:
  • Bannor: Do you plan on giving the cleric any medic promotions at all? (It's supposed to be an early battlefield medic unit, after all; in its current stage, it's basically a more expensive warrior. At least make it upgradeable into priestlings like the Lightbringer.)
  • Elohim: What about having them start with a monk instead of a warrior? Makes the early game easier to survive with them, and a monk has only 3/5 outside Elohim territory anyway so rushes are out of the question. Also feels more flavorful. (The monk feels a bit underpowered to me in general; about the same strength as a warrior but can't use metals. I guess it's good as an anti-assassin unit, but it doesn't really fulfill its anti-demon flavor all that well.)
  • Kurios: Will Herne be brought back in 1.4?
  • Lanun: Guybrush Threepwood and boarding parties should probably start with amphibious.
  • Berserker UUs: Orbis has a couple of Berserker UUs I particularly like. The Bannor has the Flagellant, basically a Berserker with Demon Slaying, to give them a bit more flavor in the end game. Khazad have the Troll Slayer, which has +50% vs. beasts, although in RifE it may be better to change it to +50% vs. giantkin/trollkin. Any thoughts about importing them?
  • Pedia: I don't like the way the civ banners dominate the civ pages, plus the images are stretched vertically. IMO the previous, narrower version looked better.
  • Miscellanea: The Malakim and Mechanos buttons look squashed. I think Orbis has non-squashed versions.
  • Trophies: Why is there still a Kahdi victory trophy? For that matter, why isn't there a Mekaran victory one?
 
Originally posted this in the other Feedback/Ideas/Requests thread, either before this thread was here or before I noticed it...

Just started playing, so maybe it gets better later in the game, but unhealth is out of control at the beginning of a game in 1.30. Playing Monarch (not even a high level, because I like to start at Monarch with variable difficulty turned on), my capital city becomes unhealthy as soon as it grows to size 2, even with several forests in the BFC... That's crazy. So on a high level, do we *start* with unhealth in our capital so it can only grow 1 surplus food at a time?

Seems to slow down the start of a game a whole lot, when it was already pretty slow having to produce 2 or 3 warriors, a settler, and a worker (mostly, but not necessarily entirely, in that order)... That takes like 100 turns for a 1-size city...
 
It'll take more time to be sure, but I think the double base rate sickness will force people to micro manage their towns.

I know a lot of people like doing this, but I have a tendency to only do when absolutely necessary and let the AI manage it. Making my games much quicker.

Each turn, making sure towns with enough heath pop, and ones without don't doesn't sound fun to me.
 
Micromanaging my towns is one thing, but not being able to get my starting capital to size 3 is a little weak...

The other problem with the 2 unhealth per pop is that a city that is producing 1 surplus food with unhealthy >= healthy, can grow a size just to starve on the next turn (expanding on what Dalnor mentioned). That is much less likely with the regular rate.

I wonder what the point behind this is... It didn't seem broken before. Sure, we had an extra specialist in the Healer and a building in the Well (and Salthouse... does that increase health? I forget) which make healthy a little easier to get than regular FfH, but a) you don't want to have to use those because they don't do anything else, so if you had gotten to the point where you *were* using the Healer, it had a steep opportunity cost, so it should be okay that they weren't usually necessary, and b) I'd rather just not have those things than change the fundamental way that unhealthiness works...

Maybe there's another reason for the change?
 
Segolenus said:
A few questions/suggestions, feel free to ignore:
  • Bannor: Do you plan on giving the cleric any medic promotions at all? (It's supposed to be an early battlefield medic unit, after all; in its current stage, it's basically a more expensive warrior. At least make it upgradeable into priestlings like the Lightbringer.)
  • Elohim: What about having them start with a monk instead of a warrior? Makes the early game easier to survive with them, and a monk has only 3/5 outside Elohim territory anyway so rushes are out of the question. Also feels more flavorful. (The monk feels a bit underpowered to me in general; about the same strength as a warrior but can't use metals. I guess it's good as an anti-assassin unit, but it doesn't really fulfill its anti-demon flavor all that well.)
  • Kurios: Will Herne be brought back in 1.4?
  • Lanun: Guybrush Threepwood and boarding parties should probably start with amphibious.
  • Berserker UUs: Orbis has a couple of Berserker UUs I particularly like. The Bannor has the Flagellant, basically a Berserker with Demon Slaying, to give them a bit more flavor in the end game. Khazad have the Troll Slayer, which has +50% vs. beasts, although in RifE it may be better to change it to +50% vs. giantkin/trollkin. Any thoughts about importing them?
  • Pedia: I don't like the way the civ banners dominate the civ pages, plus the images are stretched vertically. IMO the previous, narrower version looked better.
  • Miscellanea: The Malakim and Mechanos buttons look squashed. I think Orbis has non-squashed versions.
Click to expand...


  • Not sure; I'd have to look at the unit.
  • Probably not.
  • You mean the hero? Not sure. If not 1.4 it would likely happen in 1.5, though, for the same reason he was introduced in FfH; No more chariots.
  • Possibly. Will think about it.
  • The Flagellant maybe; The Troll Slayer, I don't see how it really fits.
  • The images are stretched because they are a different resolution from the new page. We are looking for new images. It's unlikely to go back to the old size.
  • They are actually the same buttons in both mods.

EugeneStyles said:
Originally posted this in the other Feedback/Ideas/Requests thread, either before this thread was here or before I noticed it...

Just started playing, so maybe it gets better later in the game, but unhealth is out of control at the beginning of a game in 1.30. Playing Monarch (not even a high level, because I like to start at Monarch with variable difficulty turned on), my capital city becomes unhealthy as soon as it grows to size 2, even with several forests in the BFC... That's crazy. So on a high level, do we *start* with unhealth in our capital so it can only grow 1 surplus food at a time?

Seems to slow down the start of a game a whole lot, when it was already pretty slow having to produce 2 or 3 warriors, a settler, and a worker (mostly, but not necessarily entirely, in that order)... That takes like 100 turns for a 1-size city...
Click to expand...

Really, this belongs in the Balance Feedback thread.

That said... The unhealth change is still being actively balanced. Fresh water is VERY important when settling.

Dalnor said:
It'll take more time to be sure, but I think the double base rate sickness will force people to micro manage their towns.

I know a lot of people like doing this, but I have a tendency to only do when absolutely necessary and let the AI manage it. Making my games much quicker.

Each turn, making sure towns with enough heath pop, and ones without don't doesn't sound fun to me.
Click to expand...

Only if you attempt to achieve the same size cities as in RifE 1.23. We felt that cities were too large, too fast; This is a good way to limit growth, without moving to 3food/pop as in Orbis.

Basically: Don't bother trying to grow your cities as high as used to be possible, don't worry overly about growing into unhealth so long as you have the food to support it, and get some Healer specialists. There will only be micro if you insist on going for the absolute max growth you can achieve... In which case, simply turn on the "Avoid Unhealth" option for the city, and you won't be checking it constantly for available health.
 
EugeneStyles said:
Micromanaging my towns is one thing, but not being able to get my starting capital to size 3 is a little weak...

The other problem with the 2 unhealth per pop is that a city that is producing 1 surplus food with unhealthy >= healthy, can grow a size just to starve on the next turn (expanding on what Dalnor mentioned). That is much less likely with the regular rate.

I wonder what the point behind this is... It didn't seem broken before. Sure, we had an extra specialist in the Healer and a building in the Well (and Salthouse... does that increase health? I forget) which make healthy a little easier to get than regular FfH, but a) you don't want to have to use those because they don't do anything else, so if you had gotten to the point where you *were* using the Healer, it had a steep opportunity cost, so it should be okay that they weren't usually necessary, and b) I'd rather just not have those things than change the fundamental way that unhealthiness works...

Maybe there's another reason for the change?
Click to expand...

Unhealth was changed because we felt city sizes were too large, as I said. Orbis came to the same conclusion, though Ahwaric solved it in a different way.
 
First of all, let me thank the team for this amazing patch, you guys are the best!.

Now, lumbermill is a little bit too good atm, giving additional 2p 1c and another 1p with iron work without any penalty seems always the better choice than mine or workshop if a forest is present at the tile. Either give it a penalty o tune down the bonus a bit.
 
Some thoughts.
The archos are the only civ that has a palace that only grants two resources. If you don't add another mana then I think silk would work.
The archos priest grants a beaker. The great prophet specialist should do the same.

I never quite understood healers but now they seem worthless. one specialist uses two food and generates two :yuck:, but it only generates three :health:. That is a net affect of negative one food. They should probably produce five :health:, for a net affect of plus one food. Healers should also get plus one :health: with traditions and minus one :health: with sacrifice the weak.

Now for an idea that probably won't be considered. Clan Bosses should emphasize the clan's large number of weak units, but instead they feel like a personal trainer for elite fighters. could goblins be made so that they can be lead in larger amounts, so that a boss could lead one warrior or two goblins.
 
That said... The unhealth change is still being actively balanced. Fresh water is VERY important when settling.
Click to expand...


Is it intended that this makes starting positions without fresh water in reach basically unviable? Non river capitals had a hefty penalty anyway, due to the lacking commerce. Restricting early settlements to rivers is nice flavourwise, but some civs will end up totally screwed by a bad starting location.
 
pizzamonger said:
First of all, let me thank the team for this amazing patch, you guys are the best!.

Now, lumbermill is a little bit too good atm, giving additional 2p 1c and another 1p with iron work without any penalty seems always the better choice than mine or workshop if a forest is present at the tile. Either give it a penalty o tune down the bonus a bit.
Click to expand...

The lumbermill is meant to be good, as are other mills. They require mid-game techs; They are completely, 100% meant to be good improvements, that will replace those of the early game.

Dalnor said:
I started a second game near a large river system it was much better.
Click to expand...

Yep, rivers are vital in the early game.

JEiK66 said:
Some thoughts.
The archos are the only civ that has a palace that only grants two resources. If you don't add another mana then I think silk would work.
The archos priest grants a beaker. The great prophet specialist should do the same.
Click to expand...

I'll look at their palace. And yes, the prophet should probably get the same bonus.

JEiK66 said:
I never quite understood healers but now they seem worthless. one specialist uses two food and generates two :yuck:, but it only generates three :health:. That is a net affect of negative one food. They should probably produce five :health:, for a net affect of plus one food. Healers should also get plus one :health: with traditions and minus one :health: with sacrifice the weak.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind: They also generate Great Healers, which have a higher :health: and do not generate :yuck:

We'll be looking at the stats though.

JEiK66 said:
Now for an idea that probably won't be considered. Clan Bosses should emphasize the clan's large number of weak units, but instead they feel like a personal trainer for elite fighters. could goblins be made so that they can be lead in larger amounts, so that a boss could lead one warrior or two goblins.
Click to expand...

The Clan do not have goblins. Or at least should not, not anymore.

tokala said:
Is it intended that this makes starting positions without fresh water in reach basically unviable? Non river capitals had a hefty penalty anyway, due to the lacking commerce. Restricting early settlements to rivers is nice flavourwise, but some civs will end up totally screwed by a bad starting location.
Click to expand...

Essentially.. Yes. The AI already greatly values rivers when settling, and has for some time.
 
Why does the existence of a goblin civ months in the future remove goblins from the clan, but not goblin wolf riders and goblin archers?
 
Valkrionn said:
Keep in mind: They also generate Great Healers, which have a higher :health: and do not generate :yuck:
Click to expand...

Did you intend the impact this will obviously have on a GPP-based strategy in the early game?

Rushing a religion and having a Great Prophet ready to pop the holy building is going to be a lot more difficult now, when the first and possibly second great person(s) produced are forced to be Healers.

I'm not complaining personally (yet) -- I dove right into the D'Tesh. :p
 
JEiK66 said:
Why does the existence of a goblin civ months in the future remove goblins from the clan, but not goblin wolf riders and goblin archers?
Click to expand...

The clan don't have goblin wolf riders or goblin archers....

Or do you mean the barb units? If so... That has to do with the small bit of lore that we have for them. There is a basic idea, but honestly the civ is mostly built around a few mechanics we like that are lacking currently.

Also keep in mind: The Goblins will be barb-friendly, just as the Orcs.
 
Tsathoggua said:
Did you intend the impact this will obviously have on a GPP-based strategy in the early game?

Rushing a religion and having a Great Prophet ready to pop the holy building is going to be a lot more difficult now, when the first and possibly second great person(s) produced are forced to be Healers.

I'm not complaining personally (yet) -- I dove right into the D'Tesh. :p
Click to expand...

Not entirely. That's why I said it will be looked at. It was mostly Opera's project, though I kept up with the changes (as with all other changes... :p)

And the D'tesh are fun. :lol:
 
This has done one thing at least (besides slowing down the early game which was our main goal I believe), which is it has made more GP's a fair strategy in the early game. It's not just rush a Scientist for the Academy or a Prophet for a religion which seem to be the most common first uses of GPs.
 
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