Current (SVN) development discussion thread

I'm already considering giving military aid to the Protestants, this would help the Netherlands. Catholic Portugal is unlikely to suffer because Spain usually remains Catholic as well.
 
Catholic Portugal
I was referring to Protestant Portugal.

Plus what is your opinion on encouraging the Europeans to build Amsterdam rather early. An incentive to build it would be no stability penalty when Dutch spawn. It would be rather interesting to see something along the lines of War of Dutch secession from Spanish or HRE rule. It would be really interesting if Amsterdamn starts an independent, as it will be free for all like Rome and it would make wars more interesting.
 
New commit is up. It's been a while since the last one, but I haven't been idle in the meantime. This one featured an extensive overhaul of several wonders and the addition of some new ones. Due to many wonders lacking an appropriate tech requirement, I've added another tech, Patronage (this is a singular event!). It requires Music and Guilds and gives a free artist for the first civ that discovers it, instead of Music. Short summary of the wonder changes:

  • Khajuraho is now cheaper
  • Statue of Zeus now obsoletes with Theology instead of Divine Right
  • University of Sankore expires with Education now
  • Pantheon replaced with the Leaning Tower again, requires Patronage
  • La Mezquita now gives two free priests
  • Added the Versailles wonder, requires Patronage and Divine Right, starts a golden age
  • Completely removed the Great Bath
  • Sistine Chapel now requires Patronage
  • Added the Empire State Building wonder, requires Steel and Industrialism, +1 gold per population point
  • Added the Grand Canal wonder, requires Machinery, Calendar and a river, +2 commerce from river tiles for its city, expires with Replaceable Parts
  • Added the Floating Gardens wonder, requires Construction and Corn, +1 food from river tiles for its city, expires with Optics
  • Added the Trafalgar Square wonder, requires Astronomy, Chemistry and a level 3 naval unit, +5 XP and +50% construction speed for naval units, expires with Combustion
  • Old Borobudur effect removed, it now allows great prophets to create great works like great artists
  • Kremlin now requires Gunpowder and gives +2 espionage per state religion building
  • Westminster Palace now expires with Fiber Optics
  • Great Sphinx now gives unlimited artists to its city
  • Extra trade route yield removed from Porcelain Tower, replaced with +2 free merchants
  • Added the Lubyanka wonder, requires Communism, +2 espionage per specialist

Other changes:
  • Negative attitude modifiers between Orthodoxy and other Christians halved, Peter and Catherine also care less about religion
  • Thai changes: Ho Trai now gives +25% culture, Chang Suek has +50% against Riflemen
  • Resurrection changes: respawning civs shouldn't be that technologically advanced anymore
  • The Greek UP now expires after the Classical Era
  • Great Artists' great works now only provide 800 culture per era (ancient counts as 1 here)
  • To accomodate for this change, Japan's first UHV goal now only requires 20000 culture

For details refer to the history file.

I'm not sure if I like these changes.
What's going to happen to Egypt if GAs only pop 800 in their early era?
Also, if resurrecting civs don't have all the techs of their occupier,
they're not going to be able to fight them off as well.
I also still think you should remove the tech penalty on China when it reaches Modern Era; for players who play only for UHV,
Industrial tech penalty will slow them down like it's supposed to before 1800.
But currently, for the other victory types, it's unnecessary.
Please remove the penalty upon reaching Modern, Leoreth.
 
New commit is up. It's been a while since the last one, but I haven't been idle in the meantime. This one featured an extensive overhaul of several wonders and the addition of some new ones. Due to many wonders lacking an appropriate tech requirement, I've added another tech, Patronage (this is a singular event!). It requires Music and Guilds and gives a free artist for the first civ that discovers it, instead of Music. Short summary of the wonder changes:

  • Khajuraho is now cheaper
  • Statue of Zeus now obsoletes with Theology instead of Divine Right
  • University of Sankore expires with Education now
  • Pantheon replaced with the Leaning Tower again, requires Patronage
  • La Mezquita now gives two free priests
  • Added the Versailles wonder, requires Patronage and Divine Right, starts a golden age
  • Completely removed the Great Bath
  • Sistine Chapel now requires Patronage
  • Added the Empire State Building wonder, requires Steel and Industrialism, +1 gold per population point
  • Added the Grand Canal wonder, requires Machinery, Calendar and a river, +2 commerce from river tiles for its city, expires with Replaceable Parts
  • Added the Floating Gardens wonder, requires Construction and Corn, +1 food from river tiles for its city, expires with Optics
  • Added the Trafalgar Square wonder, requires Astronomy, Chemistry and a level 3 naval unit, +5 XP and +50% construction speed for naval units, expires with Combustion
  • Old Borobudur effect removed, it now allows great prophets to create great works like great artists
  • Kremlin now requires Gunpowder and gives +2 espionage per state religion building
  • Westminster Palace now expires with Fiber Optics
  • Great Sphinx now gives unlimited artists to its city
  • Extra trade route yield removed from Porcelain Tower, replaced with +2 free merchants
  • Added the Lubyanka wonder, requires Communism, +2 espionage per specialist

Other changes:
  • Negative attitude modifiers between Orthodoxy and other Christians halved, Peter and Catherine also care less about religion
  • Thai changes: Ho Trai now gives +25% culture, Chang Suek has +50% against Riflemen
  • Resurrection changes: respawning civs shouldn't be that technologically advanced anymore
  • The Greek UP now expires after the Classical Era
  • Great Artists' great works now only provide 800 culture per era (ancient counts as 1 here)
  • To accomodate for this change, Japan's first UHV goal now only requires 20000 culture

For details refer to the history file.
I like most of these, except a few:

(1) I like Borobudur's old effect better.

For one, Cultural goals such as the Japanese UHV should be obtainable equally from Settled Artists as they are from Great Works. Settled Artists are especially useful on Epic and Marathon, as Great Works do not create additional Culture, but the Culture requirement is higher.

For another, the old Borobudur really was just comparable to the Sistine Chapel. In fact, I'd say the Chapel was even better than the old Borobudur, as a Chapel Scientist/Merchant provides almost as much Culture as an Artist, and more. Now, the Borobudur is just useless compared to the Sistine Chapel. The Chapel also does not obsolete, making it even more powerful.

(2) University of Sankore obsoletes too early. Education is just one tech after Paper - are you serious? If you want earlier obsolescence it's fine, choose something more moderate like Liberalism or Constitution.

Also, why doesn't the Spiral Minaret get the same treatment? I mean, the two Wonders have similar effects, but the Minaret is available even earlier. I suggest the Spiral Minaret obsolete with Assembly Line at the latest.

(3) One additional suggestion: There should be fewer Religious Wonders.

Topkapi Palace/Red Fort should not require Islam. Those builds are not religious in nature, and hence should not require Islam. Let them have an additional tech requirement of Divine Right instead.

For the same reason, Theodosian Walls should not require any Religion. Let it require Theology and Construction instead.

The Dome of the Rock is another case. It is not an Islamic religious building, and hence should not require Islam. Suggest also making it require Divine Right instead.

Versailles should not be a religious Wonder either, although I can't think of a tech requirement for it atm.

To balance these out (the only kink I see is China fast-teching Divine Right), make Divine Right more expensive to research, and Mali less likely to trade for it. As it is now, I call Mansa "Divine Right guy".
 
The reason they have religions attached is so they get built in generally correct area
 
my advice about Porcelain Tower

I think the original special abilities are well,but it could obsolete by astronomy or economy,and not +1 trade routes.

If so,Porcelain Tower is also very useful to China,but nearly useless to European civs
 
What's going to happen to Egypt if GAs only pop 800 in their early era?
Their UHV doesn't rely on GA. I think it's more interesting now that you can't achieve it with one culture bomb.

Also, if resurrecting civs don't have all the techs of their occupier,
they're not going to be able to fight them off as well.
They'll usually have unless their occupier is from another part of the world. Previously, to get a tech as a resurrected civ only one of the independents or the barbarians needed to have it. Since they're quickly updated once another civ discovers a tech, this often means that resurrected civs were put on the same level as the Euros. Now civs are distributed into tech groups (roughly: Europe, Middle East, East Asia, Amerindians) and if one of them is resurrected, they get a tech if half the members of their own tech group has it (indies and barbs are in all groups so that requirement isn't as strict as it sounds). This should avoid resurrected civs suddenly getting ahead of those who were able to continue teching while they're dead (AI China was a repeat offender) without hurting them compared to their neighbours.

I also still think you should remove the tech penalty on China when it reaches Modern Era; for players who play only for UHV,
Industrial tech penalty will slow them down like it's supposed to before 1800.
But currently, for the other victory types, it's unnecessary.
Please remove the penalty upon reaching Modern, Leoreth.
The last penalty comes with the Industrial Era (or at least, is supposed to). Are you sure this actually happens?

I like most of these, except a few:

(1) I like Borobudur's old effect better.

For one, Cultural goals such as the Japanese UHV should be obtainable equally from Settled Artists as they are from Great Works. Settled Artists are especially useful on Epic and Marathon, as Great Works do not create additional Culture, but the Culture requirement is higher.

For another, the old Borobudur really was just comparable to the Sistine Chapel. In fact, I'd say the Chapel was even better than the old Borobudur, as a Chapel Scientist/Merchant provides almost as much Culture as an Artist, and more. Now, the Borobudur is just useless compared to the Sistine Chapel. The Chapel also does not obsolete, making it even more powerful.
The general idea of Borobudur was to be able to get culture from religion while still playing religion-oriented (it had the original Khmer culture goal in mind). I thought hiring artists just didn't feel very religion-oriented. That said, soon after I made this change I revised the Great Sphinx and thought it would make sense to swap their effects (Egypt's culture was very religious in nature and so it'd finally make sense to build Obelisks and run priests). Instead of the unlimited scientists, Borobudur could then even get its old effect back. What do you think?

(2) University of Sankore obsoletes too early. Education is just one tech after Paper - are you serious? If you want earlier obsolescence it's fine, choose something more moderate like Liberalism or Constitution.

Also, why doesn't the Spiral Minaret get the same treatment? I mean, the two Wonders have similar effects, but the Minaret is available even earlier. I suggest the Spiral Minaret obsolete with Assembly Line at the latest.
Good point. The reasoning behind this was twofold: Muslim religion -> commerces effects needed a nerf because they made Arabia too easy, and I thought that letting you choose between its science effect and universities makes sense. Historically, it took long for European style universities to enter the Muslim world so that makes further sense. If you want to make more use of Sankore, don't research Education.

Direct gold isn't that much of a problem, but maybe I can also let the Spiral Minaret expire with Economics.
 
The general idea of Borobudur was to be able to get culture from religion while still playing religion-oriented (it had the original Khmer culture goal in mind). I thought hiring artists just didn't feel very religion-oriented.
But those Artists you could only run after building Temples and Cathedrals (As you removed the Religious Civic that allows for unlimited Priests, iirc). So it's still very Religious in flavor, no? In any case, a civ with a Cultural UHV should run mass Artists regardless of which Wonders they have or haven't built.

The Great Sphinx obsoletes with Drama. Its natural successors are the Sistine Chapel (West) and the Borobudur (East), who are in turn succeeded (or, in the Sistine Chapel's turn, further enhanced) by the Eiffel Tower. So it is only natural that their functions somewhat overlap IMO. But if you like fancy new ideas, I have a few (don't I always):

(1) Allows Buddhist Missionaries to create Minor Art Works (Like Great Artist Art Works, but only +100 Culture per era).

(2) Enables all Buddhist Religious Buildings to provide an extra +15% Culture.

(3) For every 2 Priest specialists you run, a Free Artist is provided, AND Great Priests are allowed to create Great Works.

Historically, it took long for European style universities to enter the Muslim world so that makes further sense.
One could also argue that the Madrasahs are the first true Universities in the world. Moreover, if you go by the date European style universities spread, then China should not have Education till the 20th century, which is obviously unrealistic.

At least the obsolete tech for the University of Sankore should be set to Liberalism. Otherwise the primary effect you will see would be the Mali building it (perhaps that's a good thing?), since the Arabs will likely not have enough Production to finish the Wonder before they have teched to Education.
 
Test games show Sankore usually gets built in the 13-14 hundreds.
 
^OK then. Education it is. But ultimately, it's a choice between Sankore and Liberalism, not between Sankore and Education.

How about Borobudur? Buddhist Missionaries Minor Art Works would be really fun IMO.

Buddhist Missionary costs 40 :hammers:. If it gives a +100 :culture: Minor Art Work (notice that this does not benefit from +% Culture buildings in the city) it will essentially be a more efficient way of building Culture (and which can apply to different cities).
 
With regards to Utrecht/Amsterdam, then yeah of course it should be renamed by the dutch, why shouldn't it? :) Not that it matters so much with the names, but any NL with Utrecht instead of Amsterdam as capital looks wrong to me - like England without London.

As to having other euro-civs colonize and fight for the area before dutch spawn, why on earth should you want to do that? I guess it could make sense if you are fx. the british and wanna go protestant, and thus want to help your future ally, but apart from that you'd just be helping a potential rival, for not that much to gain? By the way, NL doesn't start protestant if it's been founded before their spawn, I guess they should.
It is a little bit weird to leave nice land on your doorstep alone, but given that we as humans know it'll flip, we'll of course act on that knowledge. In the perfect world - RFC DoC 4.0 perhaps :D - flips and spawns would be more dynamic, but given what we have now, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to try to encourage it further. You have the same issue - especially - playing as the Romans, where you'll most likely focus on developing Italy+Greece+other non flip-areas, knowing that France and Spain etc. will be lost. I tried creating a thread long time ago, where the purpose was to get a brainstorm going as to which incentives we could create for the player to act more historical, something to even out later losing the cities to a flip. So you'd treat all your lands the same, not caring that 1000 years later, those cities will all of a sudden try to rebel away from your glorious empire. I still think there's a lot of room for improvement there. At the very least, agreeing to the flip should provide a diplo-bonus with the new civ. And some G to compensate you for the loss of the cities, calculated by size and improvements etc.

Anyway. Just me rambling, and I know that Leoreth has hundreds of ideas already, to mess around with. But it could be an awesome improvement none the less.

Something completely different btw, given the current Indian UP, I'd take it you discovered how to change the specialist effects etc.? I proposed sometime ago to let artists and great artists create happiness also, to give them another purpose than border popping and cultural UHVs, I believe the poor artists could really use some love - it makes quite a lot of sense too, providing entertainment for your people should make them happy, as well as building a theater for them or giving them some coffee does. Is that something you'll consider Leoreth?
 
I believe the poor artists could really use some love - it makes quite a lot of sense too, providing entertainment for your people should make them coffee, as well as building a theater for them or giving them some coffee does. Is that something you'll consider Leoreth?

I'm actually a poor artist and I'm glad someone wants to give us love. :D
 
^ Refined/Influential/Legendary Culture should bring extra benefits, if only to represent Tourism.

Refined: +1 Trade Route

Influential: +1 Happiness, +1 Trade Route

Legendary: +2 Happiness, +1 Trade Route, +1 Free Specialist
 
Something completely different btw, given the current Indian UP, I'd take it you discovered how to change the specialist effects etc.? I proposed sometime ago to let artists and great artists create happiness also, to give them another purpose than border popping and cultural UHVs, I believe the poor artists could really use some love - it makes quite a lot of sense too, providing entertainment for your people should make them happy, as well as building a theater for them or giving them some coffee does. Is that something you'll consider Leoreth?
I think it's too powerful for normal artists, but it's good idea for great artists which you often don't settle anyway.
 
Loads up an American Start.

Realizes Vicky built Philadelphia





Realizes Vicky has Railroads (has em), Radio (built Graceland), Assembly Line (Infantry), Electricity (coal plant) and Combustion (response to whales)





EDIT:
Rolls another American start

Realizes Vicky has Fascism, Combustion, Assembly Line and Railroads
 
Might be better if you start from 3000 BC (but meanwhile the wait time...). In my game as China London got taken by the Vikings, and Persia beat me to Calendar (Taoist Jerusalem ;)).
 
Might be better if you start from 3000 BC (but meanwhile the wait time...). In my game as China London got taken by the Vikings, and Persia beat me to Calendar (Taoist Jerusalem ;)).

The first one was a 3000 BCE start


Loads up a third start, finds that the Viceroyalty of England only has Steel over him...



EDIT: Empire State Building isn't working
 
I'm really surprised that you're so unlucky with England. It's hard to balance them correctly because they tend to be awesome if they get their hands on NA and India but suck if they miss both.

I'll take a look at the ESB.
 
I think it's too powerful for normal artists, but it's good idea for great artists which you often don't settle anyway.

Its' your call of course, but I really dont understand that conclusion. If you have a size 8 city with 2 unhappy citizens, and then hire 2 artists, they'd just have made themselves happy - whether you hire them or not, you'd have 6 working non-artists in the city. Even if the 2 artists each give 1+:), in most cases you'd still dont even hire them, as that would give you great artist GP points, somethings you'd try to avoid in most cases, unless going for specific UHVs or in very limited other cases, where you're trying to get a great artist. I really can't see how 1+:) pr. artist would be overpowered.
 
Top Bottom