The problem with Gatling/Machine guns

Smokeybear said:
Unfortunately, the extra range of the English longbowmen does not carry over when you upgrade them.
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Really? I'm pretty sure it does - or at least it used to. Otherwise you'd be able to add a Range promotion to Longbowmen and give them 4-tile range, which you can't do.
 
I still think they're pretty ridiculous from the midgame up until Mech Infantry considering they don't take combat damage on the attack like melee units do. The fall patch thankfully brought Gatling Guns back in line because they almost made Riflemen pointless. Get Gats/Machine guns up to Range and they're monstrous.
 
Light Cleric said:
The fall patch thankfully brought Gatling Guns back in line because they almost made Riflemen pointless.
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Ask any rifleman in the world wars of the last century how machineguns with a good field of fire made them feel. The main difference IRL, was combined arms- close cooperation between artillery, tanks, and aircraft to help take out positions the infantry couldn't bust through on their own (often due to those machineguns). Something it's kinda hard to replicate though usually for many reasons, in CiV.
 
for some reason i thought ranged units could get cover promotions but i looked it up and they cant. i think they should be able to get them. since it takes up to Barrage/Accuracy III promos to get to Logistics or Range would think being able to take Cover would delay that considerably so it would be a heavily weighed option but still worth the option.

I still love gatling/machine guns though. Usually by the time i hit gatlings im on the last AI to conquer. If im going peaceful, I have promo'd (but not usually up to logistics) machine guns that usually out-tech the opponents (sci/diplo vics).
 
blackcatatonic said:
Really? I'm pretty sure it does - or at least it used to. Otherwise you'd be able to add a Range promotion to Longbowmen and give them 4-tile range, which you can't do.
Click to expand...

Yes it definitely does - Longbow gatling/machine guns can shoot two tiles instead of the usual one
 
smallfish said:
Yes it definitely does - Longbow gatling/machine guns can shoot two tiles instead of the usual one
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But not three tiles, like the longbowman can by default. Bummer. Now that would have been a real upgrade :)

English longbowmen are some of my most feared opponents, when I'm trying to subdue that evil wench and her minions, pre-artillery.
 
Smokeybear said:
But not three tiles, like the longbowman can by default. Bummer. Now that would have been a real upgrade :)
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Longbowman can shoot 3 range because they start with the +Range promotion, which carries over upon upgrade to a unit with reduced range. That's still quite an advantage England has.

Hammer Rabbi said:
for some reason i thought ranged units could get cover promotions but i looked it up and they cant. i think they should be able to get them. since it takes up to Barrage/Accuracy III promos to get to Logistics or Range would think being able to take Cover would delay that considerably so it would be a heavily weighed option but still worth the option.

I still love gatling/machine guns though. Usually by the time i hit gatlings im on the last AI to conquer. If im going peaceful, I have promo'd (but not usually up to logistics) machine guns that usually out-tech the opponents (sci/diplo vics).
Click to expand...

I just took Cover promotions on all my ranged units in my last game. I can confirm ranged units do indeed get Cover 1 and 2.

And that is a defensive bonus of some kind, though I see the OP's point. I sometimes flinch in upgrading my Crossbowmen if they don't have the extra range yet.
 
bcaiko said:
I just took Cover promotions on all my ranged units in my last game. I can confirm ranged units do indeed get Cover 1 and 2.

And that is a defensive bonus of some kind, though I see the OP's point. I sometimes flinch in upgrading my Crossbowmen if they don't have the extra range yet.
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I'll usually have a couple of archers with cover promotion. Useful for city siege.
 
bcaiko said:
Longbowman can shoot 3 range because they start with the +Range promotion, which carries over upon upgrade to a unit with reduced range. That's still quite an advantage England has.



I just took Cover promotions on all my ranged units in my last game. I can confirm ranged units do indeed get Cover 1 and 2.

And that is a defensive bonus of some kind, though I see the OP's point. I sometimes flinch in upgrading my Crossbowmen if they don't have the extra range yet.
Click to expand...

i was almost 100% sure it didnt until i also just got the option to take cover with my crossbows. i must have misunderstood the civilopedia's promo lists. under ranged promos there is no cover listed so i thought that meant ranged units couldnt take it. i think it only means which ones involve range uses.
 
But the cover promotion would not help one jot if a landship decides to take out your machine gun. A great war infantry would be able to use their promotions to get +30%/+45% or so defence if you position them right, and survive, while your machine gun will get slapped in the face by a wet fish.
 
Lord Olleus said:
But the cover promotion would not help one jot if a landship decides to take out your machine gun. A great war infantry would be able to use their promotions to get +30%/+45% or so defence if you position them right, and survive, while your machine gun will get slapped in the face by a wet fish.
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Truly depends on how you plan to deploy each unit. Any gunner that I gave cover promotion will be used on second line or city attack.
 
yeah, i only give cover to city attackers. they focus fire now and a garrison and city can usually do some decent dmg but its always ranged. and pillage heals are crucial now.
 
Imo. Gatling Guns / Machine Guns are a bit like an idea that looked good on paper but doesn't work that well in reality. I'm not quite sure why the developers didn't just make them range 2 like the previous ranged units, but instead they chose to give them a somewhat higher ranged power than they would normally have and a melee power to match their ranged power which should make them more durable in the melee attacks they will be subject to courtesy of their shorter range. This might look balanced on paper, but it sort of misses the mark on both sides: Without the range upgrade they are less useful than their contemporary melee units because of their lack of melee promotions; whereas with the range upgrade, they suddenly become overly powerful. I don't think they constitute a serious problem for game balance, but I think I'd just have prefered regular ranged units with range 2 and strength something like 28 for GG (20 melee) and 56 for MG (40 melee)
 
A machine gun with 2x cover in a Citadel is nearly invincible. Throw in the morale promotion too if you have Heroic epic. mmm bacon.

You'll need like 8 bombers to kill it.
 
IMO Cover would be a waste on offense for a ranged unit. I never take it since it would greatly delay getting Range, Logistics and March. Taking Cover MIGHT be good for a melee unit, but only after getting at least to March. Even then I would probably take Siege or Blitz next anyway. If you place a slightly wounded melee unit meatshield in range of the city then your ranged units most likely will not be attacked. The enemy is usually pretty predictable in terms of what they will target, so they are easily distracted.

I think the only time I ever take Cover is Cover 2 for the first promotion with a Battering Ram since they are so weak defensively.
 
kaspergm said:
Imo. Gatling Guns / Machine Guns are a bit like an idea that looked good on paper but doesn't work that well in reality. I'm not quite sure why the developers didn't just make them range 2 like the previous ranged units, but instead they chose to give them a somewhat higher ranged power than they would normally have and a melee power to match their ranged power which should make them more durable in the melee attacks they will be subject to courtesy of their shorter range. This might look balanced on paper, but it sort of misses the mark on both sides: Without the range upgrade they are less useful than their contemporary melee units because of their lack of melee promotions; whereas with the range upgrade, they suddenly become overly powerful. I don't think they constitute a serious problem for game balance, but I think I'd just have prefered regular ranged units with range 2 and strength something like 28 for GG (20 melee) and 56 for MG (40 melee)
Click to expand...

Good point. Why not give them range 2 with nerf to effectiveness ? Does it make them hugely imbalanced ? If its just a matter of preference, its a mod I'll be using.
 
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