Did the Patch Improve the AI's Warfare Ability?

It seems to me that since the new patch, the AI has started fielding much stronger and well rounded armies. I'm noticing a lot more siege units and frankly it's kind of frightening at the higher difficulties. In fact, I just lost a Deity game where Ethiopia backstabbed me early in the game with a huge army and at least 4 catapults. I tried to snipe the catapults, but my 4 man army and walled capital (on a hill) got bulldozed.

This isn't the first time it's happened since the patch either. I've played an usual number of games that put me in an early grave where before I could have fended it off.

Just to be clear, I'm not complaining at all because I love a good challenge. I just am curious if I'm imagining this, or if the rest of you are experiencing this new and improved AI war capability.

I've noticed the same thing post-patch. They're putting a bit more variety into their units, but they seem to usually choose the strategy of outnumbering. Ever since the patch, I've been steamrolled by a backstabbing civ plenty of times, and they've been doing it even earlier than usual. This is happening even on Prince difficulty. It's not always possible to fend them off.

Read "Fall patch is out" by The_J. The AI is continuously updated by the devs. However, remember the initial game was too strong and was toned down considerably in later editions against the human player. Now the game is becoming unbalanced at the other end of the scale. You'll have to drop a level from before until you figure it all out again.

If you mod, and save older patches, it is easy to see from the values alone that this has been going on for a long time now. The devs nerf/tone down human player, increase AI difference to balance poor AI engine. But in the meantime they're also fixing the engine as it is now proprietary to Civ and not a third party generic and they're free to tinker.

Thus the problem, the AI plays better, and you're unprepared.

Hey don't despair, we've all been asking for a better play AI, now it's starting to come adapt, don't moan.

Best just to build a stronger army early and not hope they won't attack.
Leave 'overtaking the AI' for later.

Its not Civ 4 but yes the Ai is alot better . I used to scare myself trying to make feel scared of what the Ai could do . Well now its real . Its still not Civ 4 but its good enough . I am on Emperor and I probally won t go no higher . I have all the fun and challenge I desire . But I can still Remember on Civ 4 German panzer tanks making my nation a pit stop in one game . And another Civ late game with stacks of doom of every unit Agggghh . It was ugly . Different battle style now I know no stacks of doom but this is fun . A challenge in every way . Tech , wonders , fighting ,expanding .

Definitely improved. I was amazed at how quickly and efficiently I was destroyed by Japan on an Immortal game last night around turn 220. A combination of siege, melee, naval and air units took out my 4 cities really quickly.

I was playing as Korea and going for a turtle science win. My military wasn't as strong as it should have been but I was still taken out with far more haste than ever before.

I have noticed this too, and I for one don't welcome the changes.

Thing is, I don't think the AI is any smarter than before - it's just been coded to expand faster and build up a bigger army faster. And be more deceptive. It still makes the same stupid tactical errors it always did - it just doesn't matter as much because it will always have loads of units. I gave up a King game last night because two AIs came at me early on (before turn 100) before I had much of an army at all.

What I don't like about the changes is that they force you to adopt a very military-focused strategy early on if you want to survive. I always like to start peacefully and get a couple of wonders built in my capital but it doesn't seem possible to play that way any more. I never like declaring war in my Civ games, I've always waited for the AI to come after me and then after I fend them off, then I go on the offensive. At the moment I'm not getting far enough into the game to be able to do that.

There's more challenging and then there's being prevented from playing the game in the way I wish to play it - which, granted, does not involve having to go all-out military early on merely in order to survive. I'm not particularly impressed by having my backside handed to me on a plate by the AI as it does make actually playing the game rather difficult. I played Emperor pre-patch - now I'm considering downgrading to Prince, although from what I've tried of it, it's stupidly easy.

Personally I think this patch broke the game, and I'm hoping they will fix it at some point.

Yes I think that the AI did globally improve, especially the strategic one.
The AI won't make obvious mistake like unprotected embarked units, and will rotate wounded units, and will place decently it's troops which is a good thing.

But the most obvious "improvement" is te extreme aggressiveness of all AI, even the wusses like pacal and such.

The AI will attack/backstab you earlier and stronger. No more peaceful starts just churning out wonders and all building in every cities. I think it is a good thing, even though I miss trusting friends.

Two composite bowmen and a melee on a walled city will break any attack (immortal) until chivalry and mechanic, so it's not like you are forced to build a gigantic amount of troops. But you cannot Not build any, not any more.

More thrill, more fear, more blood. I like it, even though it could get toned down a but and I wouldn't complain. Big Pangea on immortal are getting HARD, especially the turn 80 dogpile!

Avatan said:

The AI won't make obvious mistake like unprotected embarked units, and will rotate wounded units, and will place decently it's troops which is a good thing.

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I haven't seen much evidence of this yet. The AI still enjoys embarking its units right outside an enemy city when it has no need to. Pillage-heal has removed some of the need for wounded unit rotation, as well.

Avatan said:

But the most obvious "improvement" is te extreme aggressiveness of all AI, even the wusses like pacal and such.

The AI will attack/backstab you earlier and stronger. No more peaceful starts just churning out wonders and all building in every cities. I think it is a good thing, even though I miss trusting friends.

Two composite bowmen and a melee on a walled city will break any attack (immortal) until chivalry and mechanic, so it's not like you are forced to build a gigantic amount of troops. But you cannot Not build any, not any more.

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Yes. Prior to the patch, I had some idea of who would attack me without warning- Oda, Elizabeth Regina, and Montezuma in particular for me. Now post-patch, it seems as though just about every AI civ wants to attack me. I've had Hiawatha repeatedly backstab me- that never happened to me before the patch. Now, twice in a row, I've had a host of Mohawks, composite bowmen, and 4 trebuchets show up on my borders around turn 115- my composite bowmen are being severely tested.

Yes, I enjoy the challenge, but there are times I feel like either the Light Brigade or French infantry in 1917.

Too many instant wars with no provocation whatsoever. It`s a constant surprise attack. Sometimes they`re even too far away to even get to me or I barely know them. Before you might`ve got one nation that declared war simply because it wanted to which I could put down to greed, but since the Patch I`ve unprovoked random DOWs from Napoleon, Boudica, spain, just about everyone I`ve encountered. It doesn`t seem to matter what you do now.

Civs felt human before the Patch, now they`re just warmongering robots.

I painfully realised this when I carthage was attacked by the ottomans and spain. the ottomans captured utique but I managed keep them away from my capital and then spain came only 2 units survived after that brawl with them. This was Prince difficulty. Spain always hated me but the ottomans were friendly but no DoF.

JA_Lamb said:

Hey don't despair, we've all been asking for a better play AI, now it's starting to come adapt, don't moan.

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Exactly, I stood for a challenging AI. Even though some people did not care for my earlier views on diplomacy. Because of that they thought I did not want the AI to win, or wanted to exploit it easily. Which was rather silly. I mostly just wanted an AI with resolve. The AI has that now. I have take my hat off to the devs. They always listen to the community.

Eh, I think the AI are better at early rushes now, but their warfare skills in other areas haven't improved much. My paratrooper flank tactic (drop para's behind enemy, then hit them with a tank from the front. The para gives the tank a flank bonus and cuts off the enemy line of retreat) is still unquestionably effective against the AI, as they will still fortify and even if they send reenforcements (not always the case) they still attack my fortified paratroops and not my tanks (kill my tanks who don't have defensive terrain bonuses and my paratroops line of retreat is cut). And they haven't gotten any better at city defense. My Cannons can still pound them to dust on both offense and defense, and the gatlings can still mow down units an era ahead. The AI has gotten better in the beggining, and that allows them to build up a strong army for later, but they still aren't good at warfare past the point of gunpowder.

blackcatatonic said:

I played Emperor pre-patch - now I'm considering downgrading to Prince, although from what I've tried of it, it's stupidly easy.

Personally I think this patch broke the game, and I'm hoping they will fix it at some point.

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Umm...why don't you try King?

Cheers.

blackcatatonic said:

What I don't like about the changes is that they force you to adopt a very military-focused strategy early on if you want to survive. I always like to start peacefully and get a couple of wonders built in my capital but it doesn't seem possible to play that way any more. I never like declaring war in my Civ games, I've always waited for the AI to come after me and then after I fend them off, then I go on the offensive. At the moment I'm not getting far enough into the game to be able to do that.

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This is pretty much exactly how I feel. There are things about the patch I love and things I wish they hadn't done. I like that the AI is more aggressive about overseas expansion and settling cities farther from their capitals. But I really don't like the over-aggression towards weakly defended civs and CSes, and I don't appreciate Siam settling its third city right next to my capital and then asking me to stop settling near them.

Seemingly every AI personality will now attack a weak contender rather quickly. This isn't how human players play the game, and I don't believe that is how the AI should play. Sure, Monty and Napoleon can be aggressive all they want, but it just doesn't feel right when Gandhi and Hiwatha are swarming my borders unprovoked from all the way across the map simply because I happen to be 6/6 in pointy sticks.

And I don't enjoy giving up on a game 100 turns in because a civ (Hiwatha) has conquered 2 others and is snowballing hardcore out of control. A 600+ point gap that early in the game on Emperor is pretty sobering.

The AI is definitely "smarter" in some aspects, and having a large army is fine. I think if the growth/production/happiness/maintenance/etc. modifiers for the AI on Emperor and above were toned back a bit, it wouldn't feel like such an uphill struggle. They could even insert a new difficulty so that Deity is just as tough as always, but the gaps between them aren't as large.

That said, I think it's a great patch overall and I think Firaxis did a good job. Just think it is a little bit too much in the other direction.

The AI definitely seems like it's more capable of taking cities, at least from other AIs.

blackcatatonic said:

I have noticed this too, and I for one don't welcome the changes.


What I don't like about the changes is that they force you to adopt a very military-focused strategy early on if you want to survive. I always like to start peacefully and get a couple of wonders built in my capital but it doesn't seem possible to play that way any more. I never like declaring war in my Civ games, I've always waited for the AI to come after me and then after I fend them off, then I go on the offensive. At the moment I'm not getting far enough into the game to be able to do that.


Personally I think this patch broke the game, and I'm hoping they will fix it at some point.

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If you look at history and that is what the game is based on ( and present times I must add ) Science and military ability to defend are two of the most important ingredients you need . Economy , social policy , location , etc are all important also . I think the patch is GREAT !!! GK itself was awesome but patch made it even better . I was at Empemperor before the patch and still at it . Its just more challenging which is great . You just have to multi-task now . Learn how to be a more effective leader

I was back stabbed by Denmark and Polynesia last night... they steamrolled me from east and west at the same time.... So many of them swarmed in that the few units I had, African War Elephants included, just couldn't handle it. I fought to the last twig of Carthage pride and watched my civilization fall into dust.... and that was at warlord difficulty... starting around turn 60-70 and ending around turn 150ish.

I had a game even on vanilla that I had been playing before the patch came out.I had been in a war with Elizabeth, and she was stupidly sending planes to attack one of my cities, but not sending any ground units to capture the city!Furthermore, I had two destroyers right next to the city that kept damaging her aircraft.

Well, the patch comes.When I load up the game, she immediately stops attacking the city with the planes and starts attacking my destroyers!

After a long and difficult battle with her, I finally managed to take another one of her cities, and in the peace deal she gave me gold and I gave her the city back.I'm not sure if I could have held on to it anyway.