BNW Deity Tier List

GenuineRisk said:

Nobody plays Tiny Islands. According to every poll I've seen, Pangaea/Continents/Fractal are by far the most popular map templates, and I'm certain that their popularity is even higher among regular Deity players. While I don't agree with consentient's tier list entirely, it is a fact that conquest does assist other VCs, and some Domination-oriented civs should be ranked highly as a result.

This tier list is arbitrary because it puts unequivocally bad civs such as Venice, Rome and Morocco in the upper half and unequivocally good civs like the Zulu, Greece and the Huns in the bottom half.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but what I am reading is "people on the forum play certain maps, therefore I am projecting that everyone plays these maps." Well, not everyone. The civ players I know play a variety of maps because they are sick and tired of standard pangaea and continents.

Anyway, winning a culture victory through domination is not exactly a "cultural" victory. You can eliminate most of the runaways civ and capture their works of art, but even if you get the label "CV," gameplay-wise it is still a domination game. I am not only talking about the label that's slapped on the victory condition, but the play style, as well.

And the thing about top-tier civs is that they are better at domination than most domination civs. I will repeat again: watch Acken's Babylon domination run. You can also watch Arabia camel archer runs and Polish hussars in action. The simple fact is that Deity AI is bribe-able and accepts white peace, while you only need certain units to win. ANY civ can actually win domination victory, and, as I said, many non-domination oriented civs are better at domination than purely domination ones because they get bonuses which allow them to keep with the AI and AI units/high defense cities.

All that really comes down to preferences because qualities like "unequivocally bad" and "unequivocally good" are... unequivocally subjective. However, I think that even though this list is not perfect (as is the whole idea of tiers), it still offers depth and insight, while having some flexibility and leaving some space for interpretation.

I don't know, I feel it's safe to assume that Pangea and Continents for any type of ranking.

Nearly all of high-level multiplayer play is Pangea.
Nearly all of the popular streamers play Pangea (or a close variant).

Nearly all of the maps are also some variant of Pangea or Continents. The Island / Archipelago maps are really the exception and probably deserve a completely different tier list because of just how different they are. Polynesia becomes a top-tier civilization on a Small Islands map, Mongolia drops a few tiers.

There's no way to make a universal list but it's fair for them to exclude maps that make up a tiny percentage of play.

I'm pretty sure in the last couple of dozen games I have played a non-pangea map once.

Aea said:

The Island / Archipelago maps are really the exception and probably deserve a completely different tier list because of just how different they are.

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Those maps are not that different. But I like how this list used annotations to show civs that moved up/down a tier based on lots-o-water and no-water.

Polynesia becomes a top-tier civilization on a Small Islands map

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No, they become a little better.

The problem is that the AI is just so poor at naval combat that it really mutes the map difference. MP could be different, but this is a SP list.

beetle said:

MP could be different, but this is a SP list.

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But I'm talking about MP. I demand that this list consider MP too!

P.S. Polynesia is amazing when played by a Human on Small Islands / Archipelago. You can basically explore a good third to half of the world before the AI even steps foot on it. Collecting 20+ Ruins is not unheard of even on Immortal / Deity.

beetle said:

No, they become a little better.

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I wouldn't put them in the top tier either, but I think they're pretty close. Basically getting Frigates at Compass is game-breaking on any map with 5+ coastal capitals.

I'm curiously as to why Byzantium is so low on the list, if you play for a culture victory you can win via tourism in the medieval era.

GenuineRisk said:

…getting Frigates at Compass is game-breaking

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I am so sorry to have overlooked this comment back in January. I have had great fun with Byzanitum Galleasses on water maps, and yes, Polynesia should be even better! I need to try that!

ZappiestTom said:

I'm curiously as to why Byzantium is so low on the list, if you play for a culture victory you can win via tourism in the medieval era.

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That is because Sacred Sites is only reliable at Emperor and below. Per OP, this a Deity tier lists. For SS to work at Deity, you would have to hand-pick your AI opponents. If you hand-pick your opponents, then you don’t need Byzantium to win by SS. I like Byzantium, but I have to agree that they are objectively below average.

@ZappiestTom, please also see Consentient’s Deity List. My discussion with him about his underrating the Dromon is on pages 9 and 10. But even rating Byzantium UU fairly, she still is below average.

Hey guys I wrote my own civ 5 tier list check it out if you are interested.
https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/civ-5-tier-list
Thanks

KingMonty said:

Hey guys I wrote my own civ 5 tier list check it out if you are interested.
https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/civ-5-tier-list
Thanks

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Pretty ok list. However, I see that you placed Ethiopia to both B and C tier? I think is B tier.

@King Monty. Hello, it's always cool to see what other people think, to have a general idea about what works best and what doesn't. Your tier list, unfortunately, is victim to the same trap that most tier lists that I found have, that is, it more accurately constitutes a list of what civilization you can play best and what civilizations you struggle with. Which is an ok list to make, but it would be good if people said so.

> Russia higher than Shoshone and Mongolia and Egypt and Spain, Russia "overpowered" lol. Sorry. Is this for real?

> Austria, Celts, Ethiopia, "Mediocre" "Have little to no advantage over AI"
> Venice 41, Iroqois 39 and Byzantium 35... 35! Bescause 3 civilizations, one with double trade routes and ability to buy in puppets, one with strongest production in the game and badass melee unit and one with the only IMBA religion and Shooting trireme must surely be the weakest civilizations in the game, right?

Content seems inspired from a certain popular youtuber who regularly gives biased/bad information about the game.
Better sources to learn about the game: Zigzagzigal, Carl's Guides.

Tiberiu said:

@King Monty. Hello, it's always cool to see what other people think, to have a general idea about what works best and what doesn't. Your tier list, unfortunately, is victim to the same trap that most tier lists that I found have, that is, it more accurately constitutes a list of what civilization you can play best and what civilizations you struggle with. Which is an ok list to make, but it would be good if people said so.

> Russia higher than Shoshone and Mongolia and Egypt and Spain, Russia "overpowered" lol. Sorry. Is this for real?

> Austria, Celts, Ethiopia, "Mediocre" "Have little to no advantage over AI"
> Venice 41, Iroqois 39 and Byzantium 35... 35! Bescause 3 civilizations, one with double trade routes and ability to buy in puppets, one with strongest production in the game and badass melee unit and one with the only IMBA religion and Shooting trireme must surely be the weakest civilizations in the game, right?

Content seems inspired from a certain popular youtuber who regularly gives biased/bad information about the game.
Better sources to learn about the game: Zigzagzigal, Carl's Guides.

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the two guide sources you listed are not made to be played the best, they are made for people to have fun with the civ and play to the civ strength even if it is suboptimal.

While I agree that Russia isn't higher than Shoshone, Spain and Egypt, arguments can be made for Mongolia. I also agree that Austria and Ethiopia are stronger than that.
Celts: problem is none of the pantheons buff forests which is the Celtic start bias, so that pantheon will be of little use, and UA won't get you a religion (neither does UU) so they are pretty mediocre.
Byzantium: religion is nigh impossible to get on deity so that bonus is wasted, and it's pretty much their only bonus. Dromons are cool when combined with land units and that's it. At least they are not negative civs like...
Iroquois: strongest production? you made me laugh. i get much more production by chopping forests and getting 10% from workshops, thank you very much.
Venice: they are penalized in science which is the most important yield due to not having more cities (puppets get science penalty, and you don't get that many). extra trade routes don't help in science except by growing venice to ridiculous heights, which is not enough.

Equilin said:

the two guide sources you listed are not made to be played the best, they are made for people to have fun with the civ and play to the civ strength even if it is suboptimal.
While I agree that Russia isn't higher than Shoshone, Spain and Egypt, arguments can be made for Mongolia. I also agree that Austria and Ethiopia are stronger than that.
Celts: problem is none of the pantheons buff forests which is the Celtic start bias, so that pantheon will be of little use, and UA won't get you a religion (neither does UU) so they are pretty mediocre.
Byzantium: religion is nigh impossible to get on deity so that bonus is wasted, and it's pretty much their only bonus. Dromons are cool when combined with land units and that's it. At least they are not negative civs like...
Iroquois: strongest production? you made me laugh. i get much more production by chopping forests and getting 10% from workshops, thank you very much.
Venice: they are penalized in science which is the most important yield due to not having more cities (puppets get science penalty, and you don't get that many). extra trade routes don't help in science except by growing venice to ridiculous heights, which is not enough.

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Thanks for the feedback but everything you said is outright false.

>Religion nigh impossible on deity? I get it in like 95% of my games so I guess you must be very unlucky. You can get a pantheon and complete Liberty for example, if you don't think that you can get the required faith faster.
>Best pantheons are almost never faith pantheons, the best pantheons are food pantheons.
>Celts UA gives you first pantheon with 99% probability unless you don't settle near enough forests. It's more than enough for a religion as it delays all other pantheons. So Celts UA does give a religion basically. If you can't get a religion with Celts there has to be a problem with your gameplay.
> Iroquois: Longhouse, (and Iroquois in general), requires not chopping forests to beat the normal workshop. If you chop forests it's just bad gameplay, it's not the Iroquois' fault that you're playing against your own's civ bonuses.
> Venice aren't penalised in science. Puppets are, and they get UA to boost that. Also Venice growth is unmatched, food = science. Faster Schools, faster Research Labs. Who says venice can't have more cities? There are plenty of cities to conquer, and City States to puppet with the MoV. Again, not Venice's fault. Also, while science is important, spies can more than make up any possible lack of pace in teching, should there be one. Also you get policies at the fastest rate with Venice due to the UA so you complete Tradition, Rationalism, Patronage faster.

Tiberiu said:

Thanks for the feedback but everything you said is outright false.

>Religion nigh impossible on deity? I get it in like 95% of my games so I guess you must be very unlucky. You can get a pantheon and complete Liberty for example, if you don't think that you can get the required faith faster.
>Best pantheons are almost never faith pantheons, the best pantheons are food pantheons.
>Celts UA gives you first pantheon with 99% probability unless you don't settle near enough forests. It's more than enough for a religion as it delays all other pantheons. So Celts UA does give a religion basically. If you can't get a religion with Celts there has to be a problem with your gameplay.
> Iroquois: Longhouse, (and Iroquois in general), requires not chopping forests to beat the normal workshop. If you chop forests it's just bad gameplay, it's not the Iroquois' fault that you're playing against your own's civ bonuses.
> Venice aren't penalised in science. Puppets are, and they get UA to boost that. Also Venice growth is unmatched, food = science. Faster Schools, faster Research Labs. Who says venice can't have more cities? There are plenty of cities to conquer, and City States to puppet with the MoV. Again, not Venice's fault. Also, while science is important, spies can more than make up any possible lack of pace in teching, should there be one. Also you get policies at the fastest rate with Venice due to the UA so you complete Tradition, Rationalism, Patronage faster.

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>what do you lose getting that deity religion? how much does that religion actually help compared to the investment you put into it, especially without faith pantheon? i bet it's not worth, even with Byz, since all the good beliefs will be gone. Without religion (which is the common case for non-faith pantheon) the pantheon gets wiped out cuz ai spam missionaries.
>i don't know what games you are playing but celts UA are never enough for a religion before it ran out. You play with 20 possible religion mod or sth?
>Longhouse with forest beat normal workshop with forest, but 'iroquois with normal workshop and no forest' beat 'iroquois with longhouse and forest'. and they cannot have the former while everyone else do.
>Only Venice's growth (and thus science) is unmatched, their puppets are penalised in both growth and science, while other civs have multiple city with comparable growth and science. And if you have to resort to spy stealing tech then something is already wrong. CS (as well as conquered ai cities) will also be in a worse city spot than anything you would normally grab yourself with a settler. Venice can't have more cities because you can only get so much MoV while others can get as many settlers as they like. A regular civ (France, for example) would perform way better than anything Venice can (except completely eliminating CS from the game, which is nothing beneficial, i guess).
>All in all, your examples either cannot match other civs that are placed higher when playing optimal (especially the two who get penalties towards it) or don't get to use their bonuses when playing optimal and be a blank civ.

I am not a huge fan of tier lists, but I decided to create my own for SP. I think I am perfectly positioned to comment on this a) because there are better Deity players than me and b) as the only person in the world, I have at least one Deity win in Hall of Fame with each and every civ. So here it comes:
Tier 1: Babylon, Korea, Poland and the Shoshone. (Arguments in favor of civs like Persia and/or the Mayans could be made. Situationally almost any civ could be in this category.)
Tier2: all other civs
Venice is a special case and does not fit into any list. It is the easiest to score your first Deity win with (DipV) but you still need to adapt your game style a little bit more than usual for other VCs.

Nizef said:

I am not a huge fan of tier lists, but I decided to create my own for SP. I think I am perfectly positioned to comment on this a) because there are better Deity players than me and b) as the only person in the world, I have at least one Deity win in Hall of Fame with each and every civ. So here it comes:
Tier 1: Babylon, Korea, Poland and the Shoshone. (Arguments in favor of civs like Persia and/or the Mayans could be made. Situationally almost any civ could be in this category.)
Tier2: all other civs
Venice is a special case and does not fit into any list. It is the easiest to score your first Deity win with (DipV) but you still need to adapt your game style a little bit more than usual for other VCs.

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Yeah, I like the two-tier system you have there. In my opinion there's about a dozen civs with (situationally) game-changing bonuses, and the rest all feel pretty much the same.

@consentient put this tier list to shame. I now see that it is currently a few pages off the first screen. Please see: An Alternative Deity Tier List

beetle said:

@consentient put this tier list to shame. I now see that it is currently a few pages off the first screen. Please see: An Alternative Deity Tier List

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It is so good that someone on Steam pirated it and take it for himself lol.

Why is Greece ranked so low? It seems like I'm able to absolutely dominate as the Greeks because it is so easy to become allies with the majority of city-states. And that effect snowballs, because once you are receiving a culture bonus from one city state, it makes it that much easier to impress other cultured city-states. And if you are receiving free units from a militaristic city state, you can gift that unit or some other unit to a city-state. You get massive amounts of luxuries, strategic resources, as well as happiness from the mercantile city-states.

Are the Greeks ranked so low simply because city-states can be disabled, rendering their bonus completely useless?

SanzSeraph said:

Why is Greece ranked so low? It seems like I'm able to absolutely dominate as the Greeks because it is so easy to become allies with the majority of city-states. And that effect snowballs, because once you are receiving a culture bonus from one city state, it makes it that much easier to impress other cultured city-states. And if you are receiving free units from a militaristic city state, you can gift that unit or some other unit to a city-state. You get massive amounts of luxuries, strategic resources, as well as happiness from the mercantile city-states.

Are the Greeks ranked so low simply because city-states can be disabled, rendering their bonus completely useless?

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What difficulty level do you usually play on? My take on Greece is that they have a fairly strong UA. However, on Deity it is not reliable/consistant enough to be among the best. Furthermore they have two UUs, which in itself is weaker than having one UU and one UB. Those units also come extremely early in the game, making it very difficult to use them in an offensive campaign and thus frequently restricting them to defensive&scouting tasks.