In-Depth Guide: Mayan/Arabian ICS strategy.

In G&K, burial tombs are a temple replacement that gives no culture, so legalism wouldn't work with that. Do you mean Songhai's UB, the mud pyramid mosque or whatever it is called?

Yeah forgot what i said. I've not played Egypt yet so that was a false statement. Poor nerfed Egypt!
 
Honestly, Pagodas are very bad in ICS, as are those other faith buildings. No matter how many shrines and temples you spam you simply can't afford one in every city and as you progress into each era they become even more annoyingly expensive. Welcome to the modern era where every pagoda costs something like 800 faith, when you should be saving up for a G-something.

Anything that improves shrines and/or temples - asceticism, religious center, etc. are the best ICS follower beliefs.

Pagodas are working wonders for me... well, I'm only in the Renaissance with my 9 cities plus three puppets (I think I'm close to having Pagodas in all 9). I'll probably annex these three puppets so I can benefit from pagodas in these cities as well, at least after my next social policy. I would't be at 20 happiness and continuing to grow if it weren't for Pagodas!!
 
Pagodas are working wonders for me... well, I'm only in the Renaissance with my 9 cities plus three puppets (I think I'm close to having Pagodas in all 9). I'll probably annex these three puppets so I can benefit from pagodas in these cities as well, at least after my next social policy. I would't be at 20 happiness and continuing to grow if it weren't for Pagodas!!

Semi-wide, the faith costs are still manageable but if you went some 20 cities or something which would be defined as ICS, you won't really be buying all 20 pagodas in renaissance. Some will go into industrial or even modern and the price tag IMO is not worth it, when other beliefs or even a simple colosseum would do the same thing. There's never so much faith to dump anyway.
 
A few more points about doing this with Ethiopia.
  1. Like Arabia they seem to favor desert starts. So Desert Folklore will likely be your Pantheon.
  2. You can delay the shrine since their monument UB, Stele, is the usual +2 :c5culture: and an additional +2 :c5faith:.
  3. With the Stele moved up to the 2nd build in the secondary cities you'll get through the Liberty tree sooner making it much easier to continue the ICS plan.
This all means there's a very good chance you'll finish Liberty about the same time you unlock Petra. So with the start bias you can probably take a GE to rush the Petra and have a very powerful capital.
 
What size are most of your cities typically and how many larger than this do you have?

Whenever possible I like to stop growth at 4 population until I have Education, at which point I'll get them all to 5 (to put 2 specialists in a University and to work 3 tiles). That usually ensures that I'll have 3 followers of my religion and some random follower for another, which obviously keeps my religious bonuses rolling. Still, stagnating growth isn't always possible, so you'll often have cities that grow to size ~6 or even 7 in the mid game. Those cities usually suck since they have food but little else. I try to rush Libraries and Markets on those cities and do my best to load them up with Trading Posts. They're terrible at churning out units, and terrible for keeping happiness costs low, so ultimately you want to avoid them whenever possible (which is basically never unfortunately). Still, they are good for gold and beakers, so eh, you're never that unhappy to see them.

Your small cities typically have more (sometimes much more) production than your larger ones, so I'll often just build a Pyramid/Shrine in those, add a Monument, and start cranking out military units. Swordsmen or Chariot Archers if I'm Arabia. Normally you can stagnate growth by working a Hill, and assuming you planted the city on a hill to begin with, you can often get a 4 pop city with ~6 or so hammers. Those are you key military outposts.

Have you some pictures to spice it a bit? :D

No but I'll definitely start taking some.

I think you can still produce the Mint. It'd just give you +2 gold to your city automatically. I've produced a stone works once since I settled on stone (didn't improve the other stone yet) and I could make it, so that's another + for settling on luxuries, I suppose.

Wow, thanks for the info. I had heard otherwise, and when I tried to test it I swear that I never got the additional gold. Hmm. Going to have to take a closer look the next time that I play.

Have you tried to play ICS-style with Cartage on Archipelago ? It seems OP also, at least on the paper ...

Pretty much everything is OP on Island maps vs computers in my experience. I don't doubt that Carthage would a be a good pick for Island maps, I just don't think it really matters what you use to be blunt. Maybe that's an ignorant or foolish statement to make, I won't pretend like I've played Island maps to death, I've just never seen the computers handle them "properly." They always seem to build ridiculous armies (i.e. a massive ground army supported by a pathetically lackluster navy) and focus on useless techs. They ultimately just get crushed as they suicide units into boats all game long. I've played 3-4 Island maps so far, but it's always been a pretty serious stomp.

Have you tried your ICS strategy in MP?

I play a mix of hotseat and single player, but mostly play hotseat. ICSing is certainly possible in hotseat, it's just not going to be as easy as I've described it. I still suggest beelining key military techs, since you won't win the "peaceful" game, it will simply take longer since you'll have to be building Settlers instead of buying them. You'll want to find as many CSes as possible to steal workers, since there's basically no downside in doing so. You still want to crank out units early on, not only to protect yourself from griefers, but also to pressure people who want to sit back and build wonders. I know that none of this is especially helpful, that's just how it is in multiplayer. You can try to trade excess luxury resources to other players for the happiness boost if nothing else, but obviously that won't always pan out. It's much more difficult and you won't get nearby as big nearly as fast, but at the end of the day you can still do it.

Still, the problem with hotseat and multiplayer is that people tend to quit if you get aggressive... which kinda sucks. Like, the guy who just wants to rush Great Library and NC should get punished by a group of Swordsmen and Atlatlists, that's what makes the game "fair," but if you do the person loses/quits and the game is pretty much ruined. I mean, what's he going to do, sit around for 4 hours while you all play? Fun...

That's kinda the problem with hotseat when you're not throwing a bunch of Immortal computers into the equation. If you all agree to play passively early on, then the guy who gets GL and NC going is probably going to win. That basically boils down to who has the most forests in their capital unfortunately. That's why we usually play with a mix of people and computers when we don't have a critical mass of people around. Immortal computers will make getting the GL and such virtually impossible, so one player won't have a massive science lead over the others. I mean, have you ever faced a Korean/Babylonian player who got that thing in a hotseat game? Yeah... good luck keeping up with that lol... Anyways, that puts people on a more even keel, and forces everyone to play smart and defensively at first. The people who build military units and such aren't just insanely punished for doing so since they can still conquer land with them, but the people can still all play and have fun.

Also, unfortunately, the other players that I play with aren't quite as good as me. Most of them think that Mayans and Arabia are overpowered, but that's mostly because they don't appreciate the power of a 4 city, Tradition-based empire that rushes NC and focuses on science. I try to guide them whenever I can, but civ is a complex game if you don't make an effort to better understand it. I could win my hotseat games with pretty much any civ, so eh, it's kinda tough for me to sit here and say "ICS is good in hotseat."

This is all purely subjective mind you though. Your playgroup could easily differ from mine.

Now, with respect to multiplayer, ICS can work fairly well. Again, you can't grow as big as fast, but multiplayer games tend to be filled with little cry babies who want to rush GL and NC and quit when they don't get it. You can often churn out a big army early on, rush some form of key military tech (Steel, Physics, Chivalry) and start clearing out the people who want to play a "Science game of solitaire." They'll probably rage quit and give their stuff to another player in hopes that he'll beat you, but eh, you can often still do fine. I dunno, MP with "randoms" is kinda dumb. Not only is finishing a game pretty much impossible, but everyone wants to play a "no rush 100" game where you can't attack for 100 turns or whatever. The simultaneous turns also makes combat horrible, since the winner is the guy with the better ping. Yeah... that's fair... Guess a guy like me is stuck playing Japan lol.

Nice guide!:goodjob:
Have you got any ratio between tall and small cities? For instance, how much time and resorces is needed to grow one city up to 15 comparing to 3 cities of 5 pop?

No clue.

I would also consider Ethiopia as fitting this guide. Sure you will pretty much negate the UA, but the UB will get you through the policies faster and into a religion as fast as the Mayans without needing the shrine. With the shrine still in the mix that's 3 faith per city so you'd be more likely to be the first to found a religion and possibly even the first pantheon.

I've ICSed with Ethiopia a bunch as well, I just don't don't see the point in doing it any more though. They're a fantastic Culture victory civ since everything about them wants to sit tight on ~4 cities. The faith boost is awesome, especially for nabbing Cathedrals. While you could ICS with them, I just always find myself going for the easy Cultural victory. I don't think that it's "wrong" to ICS with them or anything, it just seems "better" to do something tall and defensive in order to abuse their UA and UU. The problem is that spamming Steles isn't that good from a Culture perspective. Spamming science is good because science costs are pre-set and linear. Steel is going to cost you the same amount of Science whether you have 1 or 100 cities. Pyramid spam is great in that sense. The issue with Steles is that Policy costs increase as your number of cities increases. So, while the Pyramid provides 2 resources that have linear costs, the Stele has one linear cost and one cumulative cost. That makes it much worse to spam out early on. As such, I don't find Ethiopia to be that great of an ICS civ. Just my opinion.

Honestly, Pagodas are very bad in ICS, as are those other faith buildings. No matter how many shrines and temples you spam you simply can't afford one in every city and as you progress into each era they become even more annoyingly expensive.

Not my experience at all. The best part about Shrines -> Pagodas is that each one built helps fuel the next one that much sooner. As Mayans you have an early tech lead but you're never powering into Industrial Age or anything. Pagodas sit at 200-300 Faith for a significant period of time and can eventually be built every ~10 or so turns. I've never struggled to plant them in my cities and still have Faith left over to buy Missionaries/Great People later on as needed.

Anything that improves shrines and/or temples - asceticism, religious center, etc. are the best ICS follower beliefs.

You don't need food; you need gold and happiness. I always prioritize perks that grant me either.

A few more points about doing this with Ethiopia.
  1. Like Arabia they seem to favor desert starts. So Desert Folklore will likely be your Pantheon.
  2. You can delay the shrine since their monument UB, Stele, is the usual +2 :c5culture: and an additional +2 :c5faith:.
  3. With the Stele moved up to the 2nd build in the secondary cities you'll get through the Liberty tree sooner making it much easier to continue the ICS plan.
This all means there's a very good chance you'll finish Liberty about the same time you unlock Petra. So with the start bias you can probably take a GE to rush the Petra and have a very powerful capital.

Eh, I think that your first point is just blind luck more so than anything else. They don't have a desert bias from what I can tell. If I'm wrong, please let me know. If you get it, awesome, but it shouldn't be a common thing. As such, planning to open with DF and to rush Petra seems ambitious at best.

Again, while I can see the merit in ICSing with Ethiopia, they just seem like the best Cultural victory civ by far to me. You get to consistently found a religion for Cathedrals, you're super strong on the defense (especially if you do hit Rifling for your UU) and ultimately the civ just seems better suited to that style of play.
 
If you don't mind i added this strategy under my signature to spread this strategy over the whole civfanatics world :)
 
Eh, I think that your first point is just blind luck more so than anything else. They don't have a desert bias from what I can tell. If I'm wrong, please let me know. If you get it, awesome, but it shouldn't be a common thing. As such, planning to open with DF and to rush Petra seems ambitious at best.
They do have a desert bias. I remember a post that provided the XML codes for it. It doesn't mean they'll always get desert, but it's very likely.

Petra also isn't ambitious since I've done it at least twice now with the Liberty finisher. And since the player is Arabia, there's less chance an AI will have a desert start. Warmongers also never prioritize wonders so I'd say only rarely would the Petra be made sub-100 turns by AI (Immortal).
 
They do have a desert bias. I remember a post that provided the XML codes for it. It doesn't mean they'll always get desert, but it's very likely.

Petra also isn't ambitious since I've done it at least twice now with the Liberty finisher. And since the player is Arabia, there's less chance an AI will have a desert start. Warmongers also never prioritize wonders so I'd say only rarely would the Petra be made sub-100 turns by AI (Immortal).

Hmmm. The Civ 5 guide doesn't have it listed, so if it does exist then I guess it's a well-kept secret. When I said that Petra was ambitious, I was referring the idea of picking a civ that doesn't have a desert bias and going in to the game expecting to start in a desert and open Petra (we were talking about Ethiopia, not Arabia). If you do happen to start off in a desert, by all means go for Petra, I was merely suggesting that the desert start itself was "wishful thinking." The number of games where you can reliably start on a desert and get Petra as Ethiopia, to the best of my knowledge, is a tiny fraction of what you're realistically going to see (on Immortal+ that is). I know that it's not an adequate sample size or anything, but of my 3 Ethiopia games, none of them have been in deserts. Again, that's hardly enough to say anything remotely definitive, it's just not something that I've personally witnessed myself. I've only lucked my way into 1 Mayan desert start thus far, but it was my first and easiest Deity win by a long shot. I got a pretty slick location, I wouldn't consider it to be anything other than exceptional (not in terms of resources, but I was very much isolated, had tons of desert to work with, had co-operative CSes nearby, etc.), but the idea is that I don't start a Mayan game thinking that I'm ever going to see that again. Arabia, on the other hand, pretty much always get a me a nice desert spot where I can crank out a good ~6 cities (if not more) that can all work 3+ desert tiles. As long as I get my Pantheon founded, which is only a serious concern on Deity, then once I get Desert Folklore the religion quickly becomes founded and enhanced since my faith production is just so absurd at that stage in the game. Even the civ who rushed Stonehenge is staring at you is disbelief. It'll have to be patched out at some point or something, because the bonus is just insanely overpowered compared to everything else.
 
I went through the XML today and you're correct, Arabia is the only civ with a desert bias. So perhaps I've just been lucky/unlucky since every game I've started with Ethiopia has been in the middle of or next to a desert.
 
Oh nvm then, Ethiopia doesn't have one. If anything I'd say they're more likely to get tundra, I've seen a few games and played 2 where Ethiopia had a tundra start. (Probably just random though)
 
I went through the XML today and you're correct, Arabia is the only civ with a desert bias. So perhaps I've just been lucky/unlucky since every game I've started with Ethiopia has been in the middle of or next to a desert.

I'd call it lucky lol. Even if Ethiopia isn't my favorite ICS civ, the fact of the matter is that you're going to get a Pantheon with them (even on Deity) and Desert Folklore is just such an absurd bonus compared to everything else. I like how every aspect of Arabia supports an ICS plan, which is why I think they're the best at it (alongside the Mayans), but any civ that gets a desert start can pretty much pull it off.

Oh nvm then, Ethiopia doesn't have one. If anything I'd say they're more likely to get tundra, I've seen a few games and played 2 where Ethiopia had a tundra start. (Probably just random though)

I can see how a Tundra start could be just as brutal as a desert start, I've just never seen one personally. I've had a few "partial" tundra starts, but its never been enough to convince me to invest in Dance of the Aurora. It's usually just a small patch of Tundra to the south with Furs on it or something, not something that can support 4-5 cities. I think that there's a special map type that basically makes most of the world Tundra, so that would be interesting to say the least, but I've just plain never seen a "normal" start that supported a Dance of the Aurora opener. Russia does have a Tundra bias though, and their bonuses are certainly "fine" for an ICS civ. Production is sweet and strategic resources are easy sells early on. I'll probably try a few Russian ICS games at some point just to see how they fare.

For what it's worth, the only reason that I emphasize Mayans and Arabians is that they're consistent. Any civ can found a religion can ICS in theory, but that's easier said than done when you don't have anything going for you. When you play Arabia or Mayans you usually have a good shot at pulling it off, so it's not like you need an ideal start or anything. Arabia won't always get a desert start, which is annoying, but at least it's the minority instead of the majority.

Besides, I know that most people don't even play if they get an extremely unlucky start (myself included). I'd be lying if I said that I never re-rolled because I had a coastal start and knew that it would destroy my ability to ICS. I've seen Celts start with 0 forests and Mongols start with no horses for 40 hexes (I play with friends usually). While you could play those kinds of games out, there's kinda no point when your civ just plain isn't going to do anything. I know that true diehards will soldier on play it out anyways, but I mean it's not really fun to do. Most people want a "good" game where you can get a solid feel for how the civ should play, and that usually involves their starting biases (which are often an integral part of their UAs).
 
nice guide thx (and thx to tabarnak sig too , I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

One question: when you ICS , you do still let your capital grow right ?
(can't see how you deal with science with a 3 pop capital)
 
nice guide thx (and thx to tabarnak sig too , I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

One question: when you ICS , you do still let your capital grow right ?
(can't see how you deal with science with a 3 pop capital)

Depends on how you look at it. Unhappiness stunts your growth by a significant margin, so you're indirectly preventing it from growing normally. You're not buying up maritime CSes either, nor can you lean on tradition to give you a boost. You're not quote unquote stopping your Capital from growing, but it's not exactly blossoming like it will in most games. At -10 unhappiness your cities stop growing altogether, which is why it's avoided, but ultimately sitting at any negative number is going to set you pretty far behind. So no, you're not stagnating like you are with most of your satellite cities, but don't expect to see a 25+ pop capital by the end of the game.
 
I'm doing an ICS game as Mayans. Messenger of the Gods as Pantheon. The hardest thing is to keep your economy afloat, since happiness is not an issue because of religion (Jewish Mayans). Although I missed out on Pagodas, Mosques will make great replacements, while fueling my Faith generation even further. Luckily, I spawned near mountains, so I used the GE from Liberty finisher for Machu Pichu. Surprising the wonders it can do for an ICS economy. Took three cities before turn 100: Cahokia who was captured by Austria (puppeted) and Austria's cap (also puppeted). Pasargadae immediately south of Cahokia was Razed.

Maddjinn was right! With ICS, especially with the Mayans, the point is to make the most of your early tech advantage (even if you avoid Writing) by conquering with CB's way before enemies can make use of walls.

Capital's build order was: Scout, part Monument, switch to Pyramid, finish Monument, Granary. Then Atlatlist til the end of days until I can build something better. Managed to build The Pyramids (the wonder), but I think it would have served me better to just go and kept churning out Atlatlists or settlers so they're ready when I'm at happiness again. I think that, with ICS, each unit you build will be important, especially early on, since you can't expect your cities to make units every few turns other than your capital.

Not sure on higher difficulties. This was on Emperor.
 
I've been playing ICS with Maya, and I think initially you don't want your cities to grow even beyond 1. Found them, let them work a hill and build a Pyramid and a Monument. Those are buildings that give fixed returns and thus the best benefit for small cities. Also, when you keep your cities to size one, they convert to your religion to moment the first (and only) citizen converts. And as religious pressure mostly (exclusively?) depends on the number of cities that have that religion as the majority, this leads to a very fast spread, without needing any missionaries.
 
I've been playing ICS with Maya, and I think initially you don't want your cities to grow even beyond 1. Found them, let them work a hill and build a Pyramid and a Monument. Those are buildings that give fixed returns and thus the best benefit for small cities. Also, when you keep your cities to size one, they convert to your religion to moment the first (and only) citizen converts. And as religious pressure mostly (exclusively?) depends on the number of cities that have that religion as the majority, this leads to a very fast spread, without needing any missionaries.

If you're gonna do that, then get per city religion beliefs than number of followers ones. It could work. Just make sure that the city is working a hill to stagnate it at size 1.
 
If you're gonna do that, then get per city religion beliefs than number of followers ones. It could work. Just make sure that the city is working a hill to stagnate it at size 1.

Of course. Ceremonial Burial or the beliefs that give gold per city are the ones you want to pick for Founder, and Pagodas/Cathedrals/Mosques for Follower. You'll be generating so much Faith from all those Pyramids, you have to do something with it.
 
Relatively new to ICS, but I decided to try it using this guide. I'm going for the Master of The Universe achievement, and I've already won with the Maya and Arabia, so I went with the Iroquois. Otherwise, I followed the strategy to the letter. I went with Immortal since I'm new to this strategy. (It's taking much longer to get that achievement because I refuse to play below Immortal/Deity now lol)

Anyway, I figured the Iroquois would fit in with ICS in many ways:

1) You don't care if your city isn't well developed. You want that forest/jungle anyway for trade routes! Also, planting your city on a resource you would otherwise have to improve means one less tile without forest that you have to put a road on.

2) You spend virtually no money on trade routes. This helps with the economic part of ICS.

3) ALL Iroquois units can move throughout your territory fast. This is huge for workers, settlers, great generals, everything. And it's so much better than roads, because you can cross rivers anywhere in your territory for free without a road, even before Engineering. This makes getting that next settler out faster, it makes it easier to defend DoWs, and it allows you to charge in at your next target as if you had built roads up to the edge of your territory. (Which should be right up against his if you're expanding aggressively, which you are with ICS)

4) Mohawk Warriors: They have a combat bonus if used correctly, and don't require iron, so you can still sell your iron when you normally would have to stop. The combat bonus doesn't go away when you upgrade to Longswordsmen. (I opted to wait on that and upgrade twice in a row to Musketmen, mainly because I didn't want to stop selling my iron)

5) Longhouses? Dunno. I had some great production, but I wonder if they were a waste. I only built them in cities where I could work at least 2 lumber mills, but I still think stopping to build them slowed me down in getting out units when I needed them most.

Obviously, the biggest issue is that the Iroquois lack the faith advantages. However, I did manage to do pretty well. I was neck and neck with the leader, Persia, by turn 120, and had 12 cities, including 2 former capitals. Tech-wise, I did ok, but Persia got too strong in the end. I think I got Industrialization around 1200 AD, but by then Persia, despite only having a tiny tech advantage, had an insane economy, and got to artillery a tad before me, upgraded his units faster, etc... That was the end of my aggression, and therefore the end of my chances of winning.

This actually could have worked out, but I made a few key mistakes. It was a good learning experience though.

Mistake #1: Persia DoW'd me around turn 120, and I went after his allied city states between us instead of going around. This killed me because both were under the protection of other Civs. Almost immediately, everyone else DoW'd me. Mostly this hurt because it killed my ability to rush buy things. I couldn't trade anything, so I had enough money to upgrade units and that was about it. My jungle cities (the ones you want a university and a market in the most) had no production, and I couldn't buy the buildings, so they came out too slow. I should have just farmed those CS for XP with a few units while I went after Persia's cities. The most important thing was knocking him down a peg, because I was already the only close contender left.

#2: I followed the build order to the letter. In retrospect, I should have put off Markets, or only put them in cities that would really benefit. I just didn't need them because of my lack of road maintenance costs. That cost me units.

#3: I should have gone for Ironworking earlier. By the time I got Mohawks, they were facing Pikemen.

#4: I should have put off Education. Universities come out too slow, and with ICS they only help in the cities that have the worst production... It's buy them or wait 20 turns. Plus, no one would sign RA's with me by then anyway.

A lot of things did go right though.

* I got all buddy buddy with a Mercantile CS.
* I went with religious texts, and the tight placement meant my religion spread like wildfire. So, that wasn't the issue with my religion. I had tons of happiness. I converted all of Siam's cities before he even founded a religion. The issue was that I had no faith to spend on pagodas. :p

I think next time I'll put Ironworking before Currency. I needed those Mohawks more than I needed money. I think I might blow off Education and Industrialization and go for Riflemen and Artillery instead. You need to be full court press on offense, and Gatling Guns are actually in some ways a downgrade from CB because of the reduced range. Plus, if I focus more on Mohawks and less on CB, I won't benefit from Industrialization as much. I dunno.

Also, I think I might prioritize Monuments over Shrines. This may be a deal-breaker for getting a religion, so I'll see how that goes, but expanding your borders early is key for getting those trade routes cheaply. I had to put in temporary roads and take them out later. MUCH LATER. I wish the AI would take into account the Iroquois UA when choosing which tile to expand into. :-(

Also, this may have been a bad choice, but I used my Liberty Finisher to enhance my religion. My faith generation was crap, and I had happiness issues. There wasn't a wonder on the board that would have helped as much as Religious Texts. Still, I felt like it was kind of a wasted GP even though it almost immediately fixed my happiness issues.

Edit: Also, I think I might go Piety instead of Commerce. I had faith issues and cheaper shrines/temples would have helped... I dunno. I did open Order eventually, but by the game was pretty much decided.

Any suggestions on how I could improve this? Thanks!
 
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