Raliuven SG2 Demi-God Aztecs

Elephantium · Oct 5, 2011

I don't really care about trade value: I'm thinking purely in terms of getting Cavs, invading Greece, and extorting techs from them in exchange for peace :devil:

OTOH, we'll need research power moving forward, so maybe it *does* make sense to grab Astro and have a prebuild ready for Cope's.

CKS · Oct 5, 2011

I've started on chemistry, but I want to start a prebuild for Copernicus' Observatory in Tlatelolco soon.

CKS · Oct 5, 2011

Well, my turns ended up being more interesting than I'd like.

Here is the save and the turn log. I probably need some comments, but I don't have time now.

Turn 0:
Reassign some citizens so Tepexpan grows this turn.
IBT: Greece, Spain, and Maya all know education.

Turn 1:
Buy education from Spain for 26 gpt, which is not that much more expensive than researching it ourselves. Trade education to Iroquois for invention plus 7 g. Gunpowder is known by 4 civs. We can trade education to Japan for chivalry plus 11 gpt or we can trade education plus 19 gpt for gunpowder. There is no visible iron anywhere near us. If we trade for the gunpowder and can get 4 luxes, we can probably research astronomy in 22 turns. If we do the chivalry trade we can knock 5 turns off.

Trade education plus 18 gpt plus 2 g to Japan for gunpowder. We have saltpeter near Tlaxcala, but it isn't connected. Trade gunpowder to Iroquois for chivalry. I don't want to trade with Egypt until we take Cuello.
IBT: French start Sun Tzu's, Egyptians start Sistine Chapel. Our incense deal expires.

Turn 2:
Declare on Maya.
At Cuella: AC retreats from 2/3 spear. Horse dies, promoting spear to 4/4. Horse redlines killing 4/4 spear, promotes to 2/5. Horse kills 2/3 spear, takes Cuella.
Move on Coba'.

Build two towns.
Trade invention to Egypt for dyes plus 9 g. Trade Monotheism to France for incense, 1 gpt, and 29 g. Drop lux to 10%, raise science to 40%. Chemistry in 21 turns at +9 gpt.

IBT: Nothing.
Turn 3:
Coba' has grown to size 2.

AC redlines but kills spear, horse kills spear, takes town.

IBT: AI starts wonder builds.

Turn 4: All is quiet.
IBT: Sun Tzu's (Sparta) and Sistine Chapel (Madrid) are built. Greece, Japan, and Spain all know Printing Press.

Turn 5: Nothing.
IBT: Saltpeter is hooked up.

turn 6: Nothing exciting.
IBT: Nothing

Turn 7: Nothing exciting
IBT: The Maya ally with the French against us. The French ally with the Greeks against us. Phooey! We lose both the French lux and the Egyptian lux, because our trading path is gone.

Turn 8: _Now_ the Maya will talk to us. They pay us 80 g for peace. Spend 86 g on an embassy with Egypt. We could ally them for 16 gpt against Greece. I don't know that it is worth it. Raise lux rate to 20% and hire some scientists.

Neither France nor Greece has horses. The Greeks have Sun Tzu's, The Great Wall, hoplites, and muskets. We don't want to actually attack them.

Capture a Greek worker. Vet AC kills French archer, promotes to 4/6.
IBT: Greek longbow retreats AC. Not allying Egypt was a poor choice; the Greeks ally them, and Egypt has knights. Several advance on Coba'.

Turn 9: I abandon Coba'.
Kill Egyptian settler pair, MDI.
Kill Greek longbow. Pillage in Greece.

IBT: Lose two redlined horses and a foreign worker that I scouted with rather than disbanding.

turn 10: I'm going to leave everyone with movement, so the next player can have maximum flexibility. There are a lot of Egyptian and French units in the west.

Raliuven · Oct 5, 2011

Well that should be interesting for the next player! :lol:

Hey wait . . .

Roster:

Raliuven (Playing)
creamcheese (on deck)
Elephantium
CKS (just played)

That's me! :eek:

Suddenly the need for Cavalry is a bit more accute.

I've got the save.

Sparthage · Oct 5, 2011

lurker's comment: Lurking... :hide:

CKS · Oct 5, 2011

There is a stack of French swords - 4 units, I think - south of Thessalonica. I saw 4 Egyptian knights and several other Egyptian units in that western area. They appeared to be barb-hunting before they declared on us. Only the Egyptians have horses, and they have a long commute. I think that we'll be able to clear out the spare French and Egyptian units without too much difficulty. Once we've eliminated the barb-hunters, we should take Pithom before making peace with Egypt. I don't think we can make progress against the Greeks at this time, but their offensive units are longbows, so we should be able to keep them from harming us until we can make peace.

Tlatelolco is building a palace as a prebuild for Copernicus' Observatory. If Leonardo's Workshop is finished before anyone learns astronomy, we'll probably get it. The Egyptians will finish it in 11 turns from when I built the embassy, so 9 turns from now. If astronomy is learned first, we can either switch to a university (losing no shields) or try to get to theory of gravity before we waste too many shields on Newton's University (possible if we bee-line ToG instead of MT; we'll probably know about a cascade before we have to make the Metallurgy/Physics decision). If we swap to a university, we should start a prebuild again for Newton's after finishing the it; the timing should work out okay for learning MT first and then getting to ToG. Tlatelolco is the best site, as it has pretty good production and good commerce due to the ivory and river.

Raliuven · Oct 7, 2011

Okay, I got as far as Turn 153 (380 AD) and I need some discussion from the group.

Here is the turn log so far:

Spoiler :

Greece, France & Spain won’t talk. But Egypt will. Egypt will take a straight up peace deal. I take that deal. As far as I am concerned, they are the biggest problem we have with their knights.

But now we have the chance to ally Egypt to our cause. Egypt will give me a DOW vs. Greece for Education. They’ll pitch in all 18gp to seal the deal.
Or
Egypt will accept Education and 1gpt to go to war with Greece and France.

France would likely bow out in the next few rounds, though.

I am inclined to take the full deal and let Egypt and France fight it out on our doorstep while we go max speed towards Cavs. We are also producing some muskets to help cover our precious ACs.

And if I make the deal, we'll be at war with Greece (& possibly France) for the next 20 turns or until Egypt decides to walk away. I don't want to lock us into this without some group discussion. I think it would be wise to give the AI something to use all those units on other than us - it has been far too quiet on our continent so far.

Oh, and Militaristic my butt. I haven't had a single promotion yet.

Here is the Western Front:

On the northern front, things are not looking so well either. Greece has too many good approaches on Jilotzingo. I hate to say it, but I think I need to abandon Jilotzingo so I can draw the LBs into our roaded, flat areas and let our horses eat them alive with Treb backup.

Norhern Front:

CKS · Oct 7, 2011

I'm for allying Egypt in against both of them, I think. I doubt if Egypt will make any progress against Greece, but they should clear out the loose units near us, allowing us to wait for cavalry in safety.

Raliuven · Oct 7, 2011

I'm a little optomistic regarding Egypt's chances. As the only Civ with Knights they may actually do a little damage - but I agree, it probablly won't be a wholesale slaughter unless they can seize the GW. And if Greece continues to field only LBs against Knights, they'll make no progress either.

I just wonder about France. But I don't know if I can turn their incoming stacks. I do have one musket on the way in and I'll get the first shot at them as they are all slow movers. Still, we'll probably lose some precious units. But if I hold out, France is also behind in the tech game and I can probably buy them in on our side against Greece. Hmm.

Elephantium · Oct 7, 2011

Definitely sign the MA with Egypt. If you think you can hold at Coyo against the French swords for the next turn, I'd bring them in on the MA, too (once they'll talk, that is).

I hate to abandon Jilotzingo, but your plan of attacking the LBs on open ground makes sense. As an alternative, can we rush/short-rush Walls in Jilotzingo and a Musket to garrison the city?

creamcheese · Oct 7, 2011

whoops. ignore this post

Raliuven · Oct 7, 2011

Thanks for the thoughts/info. I'll take another look tonight.

My big delimna is the trade. Basically Egypt will go after Greece and France for Education. If I make the deal now without including France, I'll lose out on that, but maybe I can get some gpt from Egypt. I don't think that was an option IIIRC; their current 18gp was all they would give (I think).

Or, I make the deal aginst Greece and hope France bows out and I can turn them with Education first. But this assumes that Egypt doesn't give Education to France for something.

Or I wait for one turn and see if France bows out so I can turn both of them with Education. Of course the possibility exists that someone gives one or both of them Education on the IBT and we lose out altogether. Seems unlikely since it has been around a while and they don't really have anything to trade to get it. But crazier things have happened.

Its so stressful I love it!

Rushing walls at Jilo makes big sense - I have no idea why I didn't do that eariler. Attacking that LB across a river on a hill makes me cry. But if the LB attacks across the river he'll have an even better advantage. And whomever I select to kill him (if he succeeds) will likely die in the IBT because our units lack the commonsense to RUN when they are redlined (at least for me). I think our lone wondering Musket is at least 2 turns away and rushing one doesn't seem likely with our treasury.

Elephantium · Oct 7, 2011

I say it's worth the risk to get alliances with Egypt this turn and France next turn.

For military, can you short-rush a Musket in Tzintzuntzen? Maybe even disband a Horseman towards it...

Also, I'd take the Treb(s) and bombard the river-hill LB, then use a Horseman to kill the non-cross-river guy.

Finally ... could we buy Iron from Egypt after making peace? A few Knight builds would make a difference right now.

Raliuven · Oct 8, 2011

Things worked out very well on the diplomatic side; not so well on the war front vs Greece. I've managed to hold onto Jilo but it might have cost too much. I had some really rotten RNG luck.

I stopped again at Turn 156 (410 AD) - all moves remain. I can't get back to this until Sunday sometime, so if the next better player wants to take it, go for it. I can't say we're in the best of shape, but I think there may be some light at the end of the tunnel.

Egypt and France turned against Greece as expected; we basically got peace, a military alliance and 18gp for Education. Egypt turned first, as discussed and France turned the very next turn, which is a good thing because I don't think I could have stopped them if it went one more turn.

Turn Log:

Spoiler :

Last Turn:

Turn 156 (410 AD)

We pull in Chem. And we are first. Going Chem was definitely the right choice. Good call team. We can make some major deals here. Set Metal due in 14t @ -3gpt. Could go 12t @ -21gpt.

Tlat produces a new AC.

Greece will talk, but we’ve got a few alliances to honor. Both Egypt and France have been going to work on their lands.

Mayans will give us Astro, PP & 424gp. No gpt.
Japan will give us Music, PP, 30gp & 17gpt.
Iroquois will give us Music & PP. They don’t have anything else.
We can’t get at anything of worth that Egypt or France can offer. France doesn’t even have invention yet.

The situation with Greece is not so good. My efforts to save Jilo have been a disaster. But we have some trebs in place and a musket about to arrive. I have a few AC in route but they are still a turn away and they need to get rid of the LB by Tamuin. France has a mess of units up by Buto so I think we are safe there for a little while. The ACs in west are now healed - I thought we could take Teruel from Spain before we make peace (they won’t talk yet) – I sent the western treb that direction.

I set a bunch of musket builds but these could be swapped to horses or LBs. I’ve had rotten battle luck.

CKS · Oct 8, 2011

Well, that was rotten RNG luck, but that's life. The tide should start to turn now, though. Longbows can't continue winning on defense all game.

Chemistry was good news. The trades should make our financial situation rather better.

What did you do with the prebuild in Tlatelolco? University or continue building in hopes of getting Newton's?

Elephantium · Oct 8, 2011

@CKS, the Tlatelolco is prebuilding using the Palace now.

I looked over the save.

The units in Jilotzingo can move to Chalco. Two Treb shots plus an eHorse should do the job; if not, the Musket can cover the redlined eHorse and prevent us from losing the city.

We have a Warrior in Tlacopan who should be disbanded. It was worth keeping him in anticipation of a Sword or MDI upgrade, but now he's just costing gold.

Likewise, we have two Settlers fortified in Teayo. We should join them to existing cities for the +4 gpt if we have nowhere safe to settle them. Tlalmanalco and Tepetlaoxtoc look like good candidates.
Our ship near Teruel could also be disbanded.

We should drop research to 30% and use the gold to short-rush military builds. A few Muskets in the right places would make a big difference against all those Longbows. Plus, we need more Horsemen to make up for combat losses.

I'd expect we could turn research back up to 40% in another 10 turns, but right now that gold is better spent keeping the Republic alive.

Tlatelolco is working a forest tile -- if we take that worker off, the Palace prebuild goes from 54 turns to 65 turns. That will give us more flexibility in switching it to Newton's or Smith's as alternatives.

Atzcapotzalco lacks a barracks, but it's making a Musket.
Tlapanaloya could use a barracks; it'll have nice production when it grows.

Raliuven · Oct 9, 2011

Alright, I'm done. Thanks for your patience and many comments. That was a rough 11 turns but I think we're doing okay now so long as one of our border cities doesn't flip before we can build a little culture or start expanding.

I ended up buying Iron for Egypt but it was incredibly expensive. I still decided it was worth the trade. We have knights rolling off the assembly line. Not fast, but steady now, at least for the next 17 turns. About the time that deals ends we should be getting close to MT and Cavs. We can decide what to do about the Iron deal at that time. Hopefully we'll have a handful of Knights by that time.

Turn Log to Turn 160 (450 AD)

Spoiler :

All units remain unmoved. Weve got a few incoming stacks of Greek LBs. Our first knight is on his way to the war front. Weve got another knight building next round and our core cities can produce them about every 6 turns (Tenoc, Calix & Texcoco are the big producers). I built a handful of barracks near the border for quick healing and now I ve got libraries building along the border as well to push back the Greek cultural influence and give us some room to maneuver against their LBs. Those hills and rivers are killing our units.

I've got some units built up at the border as a 'ready reaction' group and to keep them out of cities that might flip.

I think that Greece has finally dispatched most of the French units that were attacking us. It was a nice diversion. The impressive Egyptian stack has also disappeared without any apparent effect.

We can move the science slider to 60% and pull in Metal in 7t @ -1gpt. We are currently at 50%, Metal in 8t @ +17gpt.

The Mayans are building a lot of gold about 200gpt. Not sure what they are up to they have not produced any new techs recently. I think we are pretty solid for getting Metal first.

CKS · Oct 10, 2011

I think the iron deal was worth it. We should only need it for 20 turns; if we end up starting a few horses before we make it to military tradition, that will be fine. Our situation is looking better

Raliuven · Oct 10, 2011

I'm feeling much better about things now. I agonized over the game for many hours - probably far longer than I should have.

My mood took a huge leap when I realized we made it to Chemistry before anyone else and that we seem to holding the tech pace well. That was an excellent decision - a game changer in my mind.

Roster:

Raliuven (just played)
creamcheese (Playing)
Elephantium (on deck)
CKS

Elephantium · Oct 10, 2011

I think we're at the turning point of the game. We're holding steady and even gaining from the wars. Once we get cavs, we'll be able to push Greece aside and start research in earnest.

Raliuven SG2 Demi-God Aztecs

Malcolm was a very good cat.

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Malcolm was a very good cat.

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Malcolm was a very good cat.

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