Hunter/Gathering Nomadic start at Game Open project

So the yields are the fruit, hunts, material, lore. What do they do?

Also how much do you need before research or build a unit? Because my research has not moved at all.

EDIT: Nevermind I found the button. Oh very cool! :goodjob:
If the general decision is to use that system then I will add the feature that the button is greyed out when you don't have the necessary nomadic yields instead of not displayed at all (and also add some ways to simplify some of the XML as it is currently very verbose).

EDIT2: So what are you thinking should be the tech that unlocks your first city? Like Shelter Building or even Cave Dwelling? I am thinking it could work like this;

- Band of Homo Sapiens cannot build a city until say Shelter Building.
- At Nomadic Lifestyle you can build Nomad units that are better than Band of Homo Sapiens.
- These Nomads can upgrade over time. Such as ...

Nomad (Req Nomadic Lifestyle) -> Horse Nomad (Req Horseback Riding) -> Etc.

If you go the nomad route then you can get better nomad stuff. If you pick the settling route then you start the game with one city as usual. Note these could be used in tandem where you have a single city and say a limit of 3 nomads that can roam around. Note that the nomad line cannot build cities (unless possibly at a later tech).
Besides unit upgrades consider using promotions to model the growth of the nomadic unit (cost for the promotion would be a cerain amount of fruit and hunt yields) and maybe only allow settlement when a certain size is reached (and the necessary tech).
Promotions can also serve as upgrades in the different areas. Like maybe you can buy a long range hunting promotion that gathers some hunts in a 2 plot distance radius or an elder council promotion that gives you a constant source of lore per turn.

This way from the start until Shelter Building you are playing the Nomadic game. I also think that the gathering benefits should be toned down since I think you can get too much too fast. At least for the Band of Homo Sapiens. Nomads could possibly be that powerful.
There has been no balancing effort in those numbers. Better increase the costs than tone down the gathering as one important thing is that the gathering is considerably higher than the yields that are produced on a plot each turn.
 
Again while working on RoH I have come up with a number of promotions that are available to "build" at the various techs. These include better weapons for attack and defense, improving one or more yields per plot and increasing research rate. All of these are only available to the nomadic unit but are still only concepts.

For example:-
Military
- start with, bash with things, poke at with things and throw things.
- sharp heavy stones (two handed axes without haft) gives "bash with axes" +5% attack
- simple wood working gibes "bash with clubs" +5% attack and "poke with pointy sticks" +5% defense
- controlled fire (prerq for fire making) "poke with fire hardened pointy sticks" +5% defense
Gathering
- Skinning gives +1 hammer from animal plots and +1 hammer from animal kills (up from 0 on small animals, 1 for others, 2 for pigs and some other animals)
- Cutting gives +1 food from food and animal plots and +1 food from animals (ditto)

and so on.
 
I haven't tried the demo yet but I just wanted to say I'm tickled pink to see this underway and it looks as if y'all are thinking it through much more thoroughly than I had even imagined myself. Kudos! I'll try to test it myself soon.
 
This is what it's all about, can't wait for this. Talk about opening up the pre-history era to it's full potential! Wow.
 
Nomads sound like fun, but to me it appears that there are some really tricky aspects. If I understand well, there are currently 2 concepts considered: one (1) where nomadic camps are mainly used in the early game to extend the amount of controlled terrain without building a city, and one (2) where playing with nomadic camps is a long-lasting alternative to the sedentary life style with its cities.

The first (extending terrain without building a city) seriously weakens or even nullifies the effect of one of the really good concepts which was added to the mod relatively recently: the limit on cities by government civic. In the early game this mechanic is a gem in ensuring that civilizations develop at a more equal pace and can cover a roughly equal amount of land. Instead of just production determining the early expansion, tech is dictating the pace too now by gradually allowing more cities as chiefdoms, despotisms and kingdoms become possible. The merit of this mechanism is what it does for the rest of the game: creating balance and an interesting struggle. The perfect game - at least for me, but I imagine it works the same for others - is one in which it's not already clear in the ancient or medieval era who's going to win, but one in which the competition stays interesting until the end. From a meta-game view of things: with many aspects of this mod favouring the advanced/strong already (and thereby increasing the gap between civs instead of making them equal and interesting opponents) it would be a loss if the few balancing mechanics get de-powered. I love newly added things to play with, but balance of power seems to be a key element which ranks higher than having more stuff for the sake of more stuff.

The second (nomad lifestyle being a long-lasting alternative to sedentary lifestyle) raises the problem of having to match nomadic progress with the entire existing tech tree for sedentary civs, to increase their power parallel with sedentary developments like libraries, granaries, everything, to have them remain a reasonable alternative to sedentary lifestyle. Letting them simply build the same buildings defeats the purpose of having nomads, of course. The options seem to do either that or to accept that nomad civs will be fodder-civs which will be destroyed in the course of the game (but no player would probably play them, then). Lastly, walking the middle road by having them convert at some point to sedentary lifestyle raises the problem of their new towns being fresh and empty of buildings (since converting to cities with lots of buildings makes no sense at all) - no competition for the civs with towns which have been building buildings since prehistory.

Of course, one could opt to introduce an enforced nomadic era for all civs, before being able to build a first city. That'd give no balancing problems, but it sounds like a lot of effort and revising the already existing stuff.

(by the way, I don't intend to play Mr. Negative Sucky Asshat Who Doesn't Program But Only Moans. Just really liked the mod you guys make and spent lots of hours already exploring it, finding that one of its Achilles' heels from a meta-game perspective seems to be exactly that - its ability to maintain the balance of powers.Would love to see more mechanisms favouring the weaker civs to keep them active participants with a meaning in the game, to make the mod even more enjoyable. And sorry for the post getting this long :) )

a solution to the first problem would be, in my opinion the limit should remain after so the nomads would found x number of cities while the rest would still be nomads.
 
Again while working on RoH I have come up with a number of promotions that are available to "build" at the various techs. These include better weapons for attack and defense, improving one or more yields per plot and increasing research rate. All of these are only available to the nomadic unit but are still only concepts.

For example:-
Military
- start with, bash with things, poke at with things and throw things.
- sharp heavy stones (two handed axes without haft) gives "bash with axes" +5% attack
- simple wood working gibes "bash with clubs" +5% attack and "poke with pointy sticks" +5% defense
- controlled fire (prerq for fire making) "poke with fire hardened pointy sticks" +5% defense
Gathering
- Skinning gives +1 hammer from animal plots and +1 hammer from animal kills (up from 0 on small animals, 1 for others, 2 for pigs and some other animals)
- Cutting gives +1 food from food and animal plots and +1 food from animals (ditto)

and so on.

So for the new techs I have the following techs that are currently empty.

- Soft-Hammer Percussion
- Chopping (Has Shock Promotion)
- Piercing
- Scraping

I assume they will be filled with the promotions you wrote about above.

I also have Portable Shelter and Arithmetic but I have some ideas on what to fill them in with.

Do you have any ideas on what to put in those other techs besides nomad promotions?
 
So for the new techs I have the following techs that are currently empty.

- Soft-Hammer Percussion
- Chopping (Has Shock Promotion)
- Piercing
- Scraping

I assume they will be filled with the promotions you wrote about above.

I also have Portable Shelter and Arithmetic but I have some ideas on what to fill them in with.

Do you have any ideas on what to put in those other techs besides nomad promotions?

I am working on a couple of buildings for Arithmetic at the moment. I was going to put the "Nomad Camp" unit in Shelter Building. The band upgrades to "Nomad Camp". I do have a whole lot more nomad promotions but have not done anything with them yet. I will need to talk to AIAndy about some of the nomad stuff he is suggesting and how it may be implemented. I'll provide a list of promotions I am considering so you can build the icons for them.

BTW I am assuming that once you settle a city you will not be able to build any more nomad units at all. Also the Band will have a limit of 2-3 with the next upgrade "Nomad Camp" having a limit of 5-6.
 
Military promotions
Attack
Nomad_Axes_1.dds - Two handed stone axe
Nomad_Axes_2.dds
Nomad_Clubs.dds
Nomad_Clubs_With_Stone.dds
Nomad_Stone_Mace.dds​
Defense
Nomad_Spear_Wood.dds
Nomad_Spear_Hardened_Wood.dds
Nomad_Spear_Stone.dds
Nomad_Spear_Obsidian.dds

Non-military
Nomad_Fire_Stick.dds - health and happiness
Nomad_Burins.dds - "food"
Nomad_Awls.dds - "production"
Nomad_Scraper.dds = "commerce"
Nomad_Dilly_Bags = "storage"

I have misplaced my full list but those are a few to go on with. Some will require new tags and such like the ones that extend the nomad gathering range.

I will also need to create a UNITCOMBAT_NOMAD so the promotions can be limited to the nomad units. Most of the promotions above have entries and text already even if they don't do stuff yet.

Edit I also need a button for the UNITCOMBAT_NOMAD unit combat.
 
Thanks, I will put them and the promotions in the SVN soon along with some other stuff. Most of the promotions will not do anything yet.
 
Thanks, I will put them and the promotions in the SVN soon along with some other stuff. Most of the promotions will not do anything yet.

Would you like for me to make the actual XML for the promotions? I don't have a lot else to do atm on C2C, and that would keep me busy for a little.
 
@Dancing Hoskuld

I may have to redo some of your promotions since I was unclear what you ment. Such as ...

1. Hand Held Axe Head
Nomad_Axes_1.dds - Two handed stone axe

I thought this was a 2 handed axe. Not an axe without a shaft.


2. Club with Stone Cips
Nomad_Clubs_With_Stone.dds

I thought this was a stone hammer, not a spiked club.

I will try to get you some more appropriate icon/buttons soon.
 
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