Death of Imperialism

I agree with the OP. I think BNW needs the coming patch on an emergency basis, to "repair" the game that some of us used to enjoy but which has been seriously diluted this expansion. Conquest is, after all, the core on which the franchise was built. I welcome any fully evolved innovation that adds dimension to the game and that brings me to my principal issue.

If asked whether I would start a game of BNW intent on going for a "tourism victory," my answer would be a categorical no. I wouldn't even play at all, if tourism were the core. Tourism, Diplomatic and Science Victories are not fully evolved game concepts from a "move, counter-move perspective." Effectively they are adjuncts to the core: My rival builds a Hotel. What do I do? Build TWO Hotels. I complete Archaeology. What's my strategy? Spam Archeologists in every direction to collect artifacts and fill slots. Other than a sort of half-baked foot race with other civs, not much strategy.

There have been some great advances - religious perqs for drawing faith from desert squares, science from jungle squares etc are fun and deserving of our applause. Still, Candy Crush (demanding of some logic) is just about as challenging, from a strategy perspective as the alternative victory conditions in BNW.

"Damage" to the core game has been brought about by a series of small changes that have incremental affect and it appears that many who insist "you can still have wars and play wide in BNW," have missed the fact that collectively, these incremental affects are huge. Even 1UPT, with which I have no quarrel in principle, has played a part. Armies are much smaller, thus easier to crush. I dislike the slow (impoverished) start, noting that there are enough people in the forums who seem to agree, that Firaxis must address this, or damage future sales. My greatest complaint however, is the pointless dragging out of the Tech Tree to the degree that I have never researched a Future Tech, built a Stealth Bomber or a Giant Death Bot in BNW. My Grande Armee, which I really enjoyed building in the past, has been moved all but out of reach. My armies in BNW, typically reach their acme, with Infantry, Tank and Bomber, and a scattering of Mobile SAM's, Paratroopers etc. The Tech Tree itself seems to have evolved into a chimera, spawning new techs every which way, sometimes offering almost no perqs, taking longer to complete, so that the out of control Tech Tree has played a significant role in creating drag. (Getting through Fertilizer/Dynamite for example, comprising roughly 75-80 moves in Marathon is about as exciting as raking leaves).

The Conquest game has also been diluted by nerfing Liberty and Honor. The encouragement of Tall (with National Wonders), the discouragement of Wide with the science penalty and unhappiness have played their parts.

Some may extoll the virtues of having to make choices. "Oh well of course, maybe its not as much fun building your army, but now you can play, TOURISM!"

These games are not "chess," (another game of conquest and logic!). They may call them RTS, TBS, Sims or even Shooters but all are more RPG than strategy. The underlying mechanism remains "achievement" leading to "promotion" in every genre. There can be no argument to favor inflating the costs of achievement to the point of ultimately denying the reward (of completing the tree, of building the complete army).

I still want choices. I think Firaxis. by creating choices has also forced choices that become sharply limiting. If I want to build my Grande Armee, probably I can. I don't know at what point however, I would have to acquire tunnel vision, shutting out all the other elements of the game. I'm not even sure it would feel like fun. Then of course, there is the ultimate forced choice, the automatic, game-killing, World Leader vote, which a whole other thread. Suffice to say however it is a forced choice that sucks.

I like a lot of the changes - but I don't believe they needed to be made at the expense of the core game, nor should they.

I am sure many would disagree with you that conquest is the main objective. I never play with that in mind unless I am going for it specifically for an achievement or something.
 
I know it's a long way away, but we are finally going to get the expansive imperial game when civ6 comes out. All that really has to happen is that the map size has to increase by a factor of four and the game adjusted accordingly. If the maps are bigger, that means more cities, more challenge and more strategy.

In civ5 marathon on huge maps is not the solution because base game doesn't scale properly for it. The other huge elephant in the room is that imperialist games in civ5 are too tedious because the UI has no tools for moving large 1UPT armies.

If you actually spent the time to read this post, you can already see what civ6 will be like. The developers won't have to reinvent the wheel because the 1UPT combat AI can just be improved upon. I personally think that civ6 will arrive sooner than people think (at least I hope!)
 
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