Are Bananas Bad?

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Carl5872

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I remember reading somewhere that it's better to not build plantations on bananas in jungles. Is this true? If so why?
 
It is mostly a choice, yet the beaker yield from university plus culture bonus(if you have sacred path belief) is mostly better than the food yield from plantation.

Wish you can build default improvements to tiles that have yield in civ 5 (like trading post to banana).
 
It has to do with what the tile yield will be with a plantation, or without the plantation. When you build a plantation on a banana, it removes the jungle. Most people like to leave the jungle so that you get +2 science from that tile after building a university, and most agree that this is the better yield you can get for your banana tile.

Whereas building the plantation will give +1 production (from removing the jungle)...going off memory for that one, please correct me if wrong.

Also, if you take pantheon for +1 culture from jungle tiles, then leaving the jungle tile on the banana is much better.

Here is a good discussion on this topic:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503706
 
You gain one food (hmm, and perhaps also one production) if you improve bananas, but you loose the two science that a jungle earn you if you have a university within its reach.

Two science is not that much, not even with a certain % bonus you can get, but on the other hand 1 food isn't much either. Then when it comes to trade, improved banana is a resource that improves trade income.
It all comes down to what you are after and other choices you have done (sacred path, etc.) and of course how much is two science worth to you just now. If your science per turn is 800+, two extra science will not matter much, but can make so the city reach an extra pop perhaps, but if your science is 80, well it's not that you drool about it but a better %age increase than 800 anyway.

I usually don't improve unless I need the extra point of food for some reason, but this usually happens late in the game, a way to reach an extra pop or two.
 
DemonMaster said:
You gain one food (hmm, and perhaps also one production) if you improve bananas, but you loose the two science that a jungle earn you if you have a university within its reach.

Two science is not that much, not even with a certain % bonus you can get, but on the other hand 1 food isn't much either. Then when it comes to trade, improved banana is a resource that improves trade income.
It all comes down to what you are after and other choices you have done (sacred path, etc.) and of course how much is two science worth to you just now. If your science per turn is 800+, two extra science will not matter much, but can make so the city reach an extra pop perhaps, but if your science is 80, well it's not that you drool about it but a better %age increase than 800 anyway.

I usually don't improve unless I need the extra point of food for some reason, but this usually happens late in the game, a way to reach an extra pop or two.
Click to expand...

you actually get 2 food from plantation(fertilizer adds 1 more)
but still 2 food vs 2science + 1 culture(situational) is better most of the time.
 
does bananas really improve trade routes? from my experience you only gain from strategic resources and luxuries in that regard.
 
I noticed that plantations on bananas have been adjusted with BNW to always yield 5 food (6 with fertilizer), no matter whether they are on plains or grassland after removing the jungle. Before, it used to be 5(6) food on grass, 4(5) food +1 prod on plains.

Maybe this was done to ensure predictable results, because prior to cutting it was not foreseeable whether the tile would end up being plains or grass.
 
^??????? Grass stone is one of the best tiles in the game!
Jungle, and therefore bananas, are never on grassland. The plantation removes 1 hammer only for bananas.
 
TwentySlashDash said:
does bananas really improve trade routes? from my experience you only gain from strategic resources and luxuries in that regard.
Click to expand...

Yes, bananas are include in resource diversity for trade routes. Other items like cows, sheep, and wheat are also included.

The thread I linked has already answered a lot of the questions here. This topic is debatable because you can get faster growth and extra pop with the plantation to make up for the +2 science yield on the jungle.
 
So basically the reason to keep the jungle over the 'nanners is that the 2 science, +1 gold and 1 culture (if using sacred path) is worth more than the 1 food gained from the plantation.

I think I will build plantations because the 1 food from the plantation and the 1 food from the granary for bananas (I think bananas give a food for granaries) would let me run an additional science specialist, which I would rather have than just 2 science, 1 gold and 1 culture. Also, If you go the policy that makes specialists cost only half the food, then the 1 food still funds a scientist specialist, so I think Im going to use the plantations over the trading posts.
 
Carl5872 said:
So basically the reason to keep the jungle over the 'nanners is that the 2 science, +1 gold and 1 culture (if using sacred path) is worth more than the 1 food gained from the plantation.

I think I will build plantations because the 1 food from the plantation and the 1 food from the granary for bananas (I think bananas give a food for granaries) would let me run an additional science specialist, which I would rather have than just 2 science, 1 gold and 1 culture. Also, If you go the policy that makes specialists cost only half the food, then the 1 food still funds a scientist specialist, so I think Im going to use the plantations over the trading posts.
Click to expand...

You don't get +1 gold on banana tile.
 
BroOfTheSun said:
You don't get +1 gold on banana tile.
Click to expand...

You are right sir! I forgot that you can't trading post bananas. So now that makes me that much more confident about the plantation over leaving idle. I guess I would rather have any specialist over 2 science, and the 2 food usually equates to an extra specialist. I can't remember what if a scientist gives 2 beakers or more, but even if its only 2 I'd rather have the 2 beakers plus great people points than just the 2 beakers. Both will get multiplied, and theres a few things in the game that give extra perks for using specialists.
 
Keep in mind that you'd work the specialists anyway, bananas or no bananas, so to view them as 'enabling' a specialist is a bit deceptive imo.

I'd never curse my citizens with having to eat bananas since I abhor their taste, so I'll always leave Banana tiles undeveloped, no matter if it's optimal or not. :p In any case the difference is marginal enough that it won't matter in terms of winning the game or not.

EDIT: I agree that you should be able to build default improvements over resources, at the cost of not getting the resource. Occasionally this may already happen, e.g. you farm a tile and then discover Horses on it, leading to a Plains tile with 3 food and 2 hammers (if it's by a river) iirc. Ofc selling the resource is too big a benefit to forego in most situations, regardless of the tile yield, but it should be an option anyways. Imo you should also be able to mine flat lands, since you can already farm hills... It was in Civ III and possibly in IV too, can't remember. Many of the world's mines are on flat land so the realism argument is clearly in favor of allowing it.
 
Carl5872 said:
I remember reading somewhere that it's better to not build plantations on bananas in jungles. Is this true? If so why?
Click to expand...

The question comes down to if you 'need' the Jungle tile;

A plantation gives you extra food; but if you have a university, Sacred path pantheon; that gives you 1 culture as well; improving bannas means you lose the extra science (which could easily be 2 BPT depending on your building multipliers) and culture (easily 2 culture - not counting GA or other bonuses)

That said, if you have Oral tradition, which gives you +1 culture for plantations, the calculus might be a little different.

Also, if you are Iroquois I tend to just Trading Post over all Jungles; and leave Bananas alone.
 
I ran the numbers on this and found that generally, in the early game, the extra food you get from the banana plantation will net you two additional citizens before you can get a university built, so that wipes out the science advantage of keeping the jungle. If it's a city you found later and can get a university up and running quick, it might be better to keep the jungle, but even then, I have doubts.
 
Polisurgist said:
I ran the numbers on this and found that generally, in the early game, the extra food you get from the banana plantation will net you two additional citizens before you can get a university built, so that wipes out the science advantage of keeping the jungle. If it's a city you found later and can get a university up and running quick, it might be better to keep the jungle, but even then, I have doubts.
Click to expand...

Do you consider the fact, that it takes 13 turns to improve that tile? In the same time you could build 2 farms ...
 
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