Aaron90495
King
This. I'm not sure which option is better calculation-wise, but jungle tiles take FOREVER to improve, leading me to not improve them at least until later in the game, at which point I'd rather have the 2 science.
Are Bananas Bad?
- Thread starter Carl5872
- Start date
This. I'm not sure which option is better calculation-wise, but jungle tiles take FOREVER to improve, leading me to not improve them at least until later in the game, at which point I'd rather have the 2 science.
This assumes that you have gold, silver or iron. I have stone, I expect the worker to freaking build the damn quarry!
Polisurgist
King
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I'm trying to hold all other factors equal, so I'm assuming that if there were two other tiles to farm, you'd be farming them whether or not you build the plantation, so I was figuring out the binary decision of whether you're better or worse off at the point the plantation is finished. Any decisions involving the time lost building the plantation have to take into account what other tiles are in your borders, which is just way too many variables, but yes, it's something you'd have to think about.
My main point there is that it is not true in 100% of cases that you should not chop bananas.
Depends.
2 food= 1 more pop. 1 pop=1 science+ 1 for library if it makes your pop an even number. The +1 culture can also be had from +1 culture for plantation.
So in an ideal situation, the science and culture break even with plantation vs without in the long run. You lose worker turns. You lose the defense of the jungle but gain mobility. You lose science until you reach max pop.
So the question really becomes how many beakers you gain from growing faster in the meantime vs not having the university jungle.
It's substantially better the earlier you do it actually. The super fast growth early on in a city's life cycle adds quite a bit of pop early, especially with an aqueduct. Not to mention growing sooner usually means getting +hammers and +gold hexes earlier. You have to factor in what you gain from the extra hex your using the turns you're ahead in pop from extra food.
Long term, if that extra pop ends up filling a scientist slot in your university it's producing more beakers than had you had 1 less pop and kept the jungle.
Polisurgist
King
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Calendar and Education are pretty far apart on the tech tree. In the time it takes you to get to Education and build a University, there's a very real possibility that the extra food from the plantation will have gotten you two new population which is >> 2 beakers.
If you factor in the +1 unhappiness that comes with 1 population, that's where the beakers have the edge.
Polisurgist
King
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I can't think of a single situation where I have positive net happiness and wouldn't gladly trade one more unhappiness for one more population.
1) You're going to war and you're about to experience unhappiness influx.
2) In a puppet city or other city where you don't want growth.
Off the top of my head.
Polisurgist
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Fair point. I should have specified that if you don't want more population, getting more population is a bad idea.
Also, if you don't like banging your head against a wall, I don't recommend banging your head against a wall.
True. With the way science is now though, if your focus is getting techs you typically are playing Tall not Wide with the exponentially increasing tech costs from new cities.
So that means you're not going to be taking a bunch of cities for a science victory.
And again, if that extra pop turns into a specialist that's giving you beakers it's hands down better.
ToodleElNoodos
Warlord
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Science penalty is exponential? I thought we figured it was a flat-rate or something lol, wow I'm behind on that.
Anyway, I thought we figured it always depends. In a heavy jungle environment, bananas help gain a high growth to work the jungles, which is great when universities kick in. The downside, you can't get the trade posts for +1
, which is what is really important later on especially when you grab Rationalism. Higher food and higher population means stronger science.
It reminds me of that Fire Emblem term, Jagen or something? Bananas are an ok start, but crappy later on, while low banana jungles are a crap start for an awesome later on.
Anyway, I thought we figured it always depends. In a heavy jungle environment, bananas help gain a high growth to work the jungles, which is great when universities kick in. The downside, you can't get the trade posts for +1
, which is what is really important later on especially when you grab Rationalism. Higher food and higher population means stronger science.It reminds me of that Fire Emblem term, Jagen or something? Bananas are an ok start, but crappy later on, while low banana jungles are a crap start for an awesome later on.
Chemical Toilet
Chieftain
I was under the impression that prior to BNW bananas were a luxury.
I can't remember if they were. Can anyone confirm this?
I can't remember if they were. Can anyone confirm this?
Nick Hynds
Chieftain
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They were always a bonus resource.
Polisurgist
King
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Polisurgist
King
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So, overall, I think we've learned that bananas start out as something you want, but they're a little tough, and then later on, they're bad, but for this really, almost infinitesimally small period, they're actually good.
Like...bananas.
Like...bananas.
GAGA Extrem
Emperor
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I usually leave bananas alone until I have fertililzer (and enough happiness), then I put plantations on them. Easy rule of thumb that seems to work out okay. Exception would be if the city REALLY needs that additional point of food.
ChrisTheMean
Chieftain
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If its in a city where I built NC or an observatory I might drop a GS on it to found the renowned Banana Academy, otherwise I leave it for the beakers from jungle.
Carl5872
Prince
Am I missing something? Doesnt the food from the plantation give you an extra scientist which is better than the 2 science from the university?
ShunNakamura
Warlord
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What you are missing is that there is a limited number of scientist specialists and that you are likely to hit that cap with or without that 2 extra food. Thus, the extra science tends to be better.
