SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Not sure about running a golden age now. The only real advantage to us being spiritual will be the extra gp points we can produce (obv a benefit to commerce/hammers). To get to Lib we need to finish philo.

Philo beakers needed approx 100
Paper 975
Edu assuming a bulb approx 1200
Lib 2184

Nearly 4500 beakers and I can't see us beating Liz to Lib when were producing 275 per turn which we can run for about 5 turns. Breakeven approx 110 per turn though the Golden Age will help.

Any thoughts about my PPP? Going for currency etc. Selling techs cheap?
Sellling techs cheap compared to what? Selling them expensive (prefered if you can do it) or trading them for techs that are worth more than cheap (prefered if you can do it), vs. getting nothing for them and the AI gets it from another AI anyway (worst of all worlds)? Unless there is some reason to hoard a tech (almost never applies when you are tech lagging, I would think), we should try to get something for them, shouldn't we?

What are the benefits of currency? An extra trade route in each city ... never sneeze at free commerce, I say. Also, between Delhi and the gem city, access to market might just be useful. At least for the final tech runs. So I like getting currency, it will make the game feel more "normal" to me.

dV
 
Just had a thought about selling Hammie Theology in case he goes into theocracy? Not sure if we have anything else but if as planned I finish philo in one turn could sell him that instead. Much better I think as long as he still has the gold for trade. Worth it for the tech trade bonus anyway.
 
Here is your Session Turn Log from 880 AD to 1010 AD:

Spoiler :


Turn 154, 880 AD: You have discovered Philosophy!
Turn 154, 880 AD: The borders of Osaka have expanded!

Turn 155, 900 AD: Buddhism has spread in Tokyo.
Turn 155, 900 AD: The borders of Varanasi have expanded!

Turn 156, 920 AD: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Abu Bakr (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 156, 920 AD: The Apostolic Palace voting members have announced their decision: Sign open borders with all members (Requires 119 of 193 Total Votes)

Turn 157, 940 AD: Christianity has spread in Agra.
Turn 157, 940 AD: William Shakespeare (Great Artist) has been born in Vijayanagara (Gandhi)!

Turn 158, 960 AD: Buddhism has spread in Pataliputra.
Turn 158, 960 AD: You have discovered Paper!
Turn 158, 960 AD: You have constructed a Buddhist Temple in Vijayanagara. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 158, 960 AD: You have constructed a Buddhist Temple in Tokyo. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.

Turn 159, 980 AD: Agra has grown to size 7.
Turn 159, 980 AD: Hatsegawa has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 159, 980 AD: The borders of Pataliputra are about to expand.
Turn 159, 980 AD: Buddhism has spread in Agra.
Turn 159, 980 AD: Hinduism has spread in Babylon.
Turn 159, 980 AD: Varanasi will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 159, 980 AD: Tokyo will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 159, 980 AD: Kyoto will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 159, 980 AD: The borders of Pataliputra have expanded!

Turn 160, 1000 AD: Varanasi has grown to size 9.
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Tokyo has grown to size 8.
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Kyoto has grown to size 10.
Turn 160, 1000 AD: The borders of Agra are about to expand.
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Agra.
Turn 160, 1000 AD: The borders of Agra have expanded!

Turn 161, 1010 AD: Hinduism has spread in Opis.
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Your Hindu Missionary 10 (Pataliputra) has failed to spread Ⅼ in Dur-Kurigalzu!!!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Delhi will grow to size 14 on the next turn.
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Osaka will grow to size 9 on the next turn.


Buffy Log

Spoiler :

ogging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 154/500 (880 AD) [28-Apr-2012 14:06:45]
Agra begins: Hindu Monastery (10 turns)
Vijayanagara begins: Buddhist Temple (6 turns)
Tech traded to Hatsegawa (Egypt): Code of Laws
0% Research: 74 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
100% Gold: 47 per turn, 794 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Philosophy
Delhi finishes: Buddhist Missionary
A Village was built near Delhi
Varanasi grows to size 8
Osaka grows to size 7
Osaka's borders expand
Osaka finishes: Buddhist Temple
Kyoto finishes: Christian Temple
Agra grows to size 5

Turn 155/500 (900 AD) [28-Apr-2012 14:10:50]
Research begun: Paper (9 Turns)
Delhi begins: Hindu Mandir (5 turns)
Osaka begins: Christian Temple (3 turns)
Kyoto begins: Library (5 turns)
Buddhism has spread: Tokyo
Tokyo begins: Buddhist Temple (4 turns)
A Cottage near Satsuma was destroyed by Indian Spearman 2 (Delhi) (10 gold)
A Farm was built near Kyoto
A Farm was built near Agra
Tech traded to Genghigawa (Mongolia): Literature
Tech traded to Hammuragawa (Babylon): Philosophy
Research begun: Currency (6 Turns)
100% Research: 295 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -118 per turn, 1101 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bombay finishes: Buddhist Missionary
Pataliputra finishes: Hindu Missionary
Varanasi's borders expand
Kyoto grows to size 8

Turn 156/500 (920 AD) [28-Apr-2012 14:17:15]
Bombay begins: Hindu Mandir (7 turns)
Pataliputra begins: Hindu Missionary (2 turns)
100% Research: 299 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -121 per turn, 983 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Currency
Varanasi finishes: Buddhist Temple
Agra grows to size 6

Turn 157/500 (940 AD) [28-Apr-2012 14:19:18]
Research begun: Paper (2 Turns)
Varanasi begins: Spearman (3 turns)
Christianity has spread: Agra
100% Research: 331 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -116 per turn, 862 in the bank

After End Turn:
William Shakespeare (Great Artist) born in Vijayanagara
Pataliputra finishes: Hindu Missionary
Osaka grows to size 8
Osaka finishes: Christian Temple
A Village was built near Osaka
Kyoto grows to size 9
Kyoto finishes: Library

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Hatsegawa (Egypt) towards Cyrusgawa (Persia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 158/500 (960 AD) [28-Apr-2012 14:22:16]
Pataliputra begins: Hindu Missionary (2 turns)
Osaka begins: Courthouse (8 turns)
Kyoto begins: National Epic (7 turns)
Buddhism has spread: Pataliputra
100% Research: 284 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -121 per turn, 746 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Paper
Delhi finishes: Hindu Mandir
Vijayanagara finishes: Buddhist Temple
Tokyo finishes: Buddhist Temple
Agra grows to size 7
Agra finishes: Hindu Monastery

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Shakagawa (Zululand) towards Elizagawa (England), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 159/500 (980 AD) [28-Apr-2012 14:26:42]
Diplomacy (Religion Request): Shakagawa (Zululand) asks Gandhi (India) to convert to Buddhism; Gandhi REFUSES.
Research begun: Education (8 Turns)
Delhi begins: Buddhist Stupa (4 turns)
Agra begins: Christian Temple (4 turns)
Buddhism has spread: Agra
Hinduism has spread: Babylon (Babylonian Empire)
A Farm was built near Osaka
Research begun: Monarchy (1 Turns)
Research begun: Education (8 Turns)
100% Research: 296 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -119 per turn, 625 in the bank

After End Turn:
A Hamlet was built near Delhi
Pataliputra's borders expand
Pataliputra finishes: Hindu Missionary
Varanasi grows to size 9
Varanasi finishes: Spearman
Tokyo grows to size 8
Kyoto grows to size 10

Turn 160/500 (1000 AD) [28-Apr-2012 14:52:30]
Pataliputra begins: Hindu Missionary (2 turns)
Varanasi begins: Catapult (4 turns)
A Mine was built near Agra
A Farm was built near Kyoto
100% Research: 306 per turn
0% Espionage: 8 per turn
0% Gold: -124 per turn, 506 in the bank

After End Turn:
A Hamlet was built near Delhi
Vijayanagara finishes: Courthouse
Pataliputra finishes: Hindu Missionary
Agra's borders expand
Agra finishes: Christian Temple

Turn 161/500 (1010 AD) [28-Apr-2012 14:54:52]
Vijayanagara begins: Axeman (3 turns)
Pataliputra begins: Buddhist Temple (2 turns)
Agra begins: Buddhist Temple (4 turns)
A Fort was built near Pataliputra
Hinduism has spread: Opis (Babylonian Empire)
Research begun: Iron Working (1 Turns)
Research begun: Monarchy (1 Turns)
Research begun: Iron Working (1 Turns)
Research begun: Education (5 Turns)


Well played until 1010AD.

and made a big big big mistake....

Spoiler :



Ok perhaps not. :)

So problems encountered. Liz is back in WHEEOH. As she is friendly with everbody else I think there is a good chance we could be the target.. ;) Now we could always get lucky and have a stop the war vote just as she attacks and she doesn't refuse so we get at least 10 turns of peace. Or something else I noticed.

Spoiler :



I did notice she had 2 scouts come towards us through Hammies lands and also a Bud missionary who is headed towards Hattie came via us. So there is a possibility her troops would come via Hammie in which case we could get him to close borders which in theory should give us a bit of breathing space as long as her troops don't get catapulted into our lands. :lol: If she comes via Hattie not alot we can do at the moment.

Liberalism/Tech Path.

As planned I maxed scientists in Vijay to get philo in 1. Then 2 turns to get currency. Money gained from the extra trade route is made back in approx 10 turns so no delay by getting it (prob should have a long time ago). Paper took 2 turns. Edu was due in 8 ish. Of course the time we want a GS we get an artist. On the plus side Liz went for Nationalism so Lib is still available and we might have a very slight chance. Well big chance if she doesn't go for it. :lol:

It is very risky especially with Liz wheeoh and both Hammie/Hattie having large stacks on our borders. We can build wealth in all our cities and run at 100% science on a positive cash flow first off. Max scientists in Kyoto (can run 7 atm and GP due in 11 turns). Mmm thought was to bulb Lib but first we would need IW-Alpha-Calendar-Compass. Having a play around with the save again without bulbing we could get Lib in 10 turns. 4 on Edu and 6 on Lib. We could run Max artists in lots of cities no need to run scientists to do this at a slight negative cost.. Plus if we run a golden age now that might knock a turn or 2 off and change civics to pacifism to make the most of the golden age gp points. Something for thought anyway. :)

Managed to get 2 of Hammies cities with Hindu (1 fail) so he is now more hindu than buddhist so 1 or 2 more might get him to change. We can't bribe him as he doesn't like us enough not that "to few of his people follow our faith" which is good. All our cities now have 3 religons and we need 2 bud temples to complete the set. Delhi has a mandir. Other cathederals need to be built though Bombay has started a Mandir.

I sold Col to Hattie for 50 gold which gave us a +2 positive and philo to Hammie which gave us a +3. Decided it was better not to give theology. :)

So I don't mind playing on but didn't want to start a golden age/mass specialists etc without input first off. Especially with the Lizzie WHEEOH as well.

I did build one spear extra as well as Liz has a knight in our borders and if she declares atm it would end up on the cow tile not far from Delhi.
 
C63 is UP NOW
 
Well I was hoping to play a couple more turns just didn't want to start a golden age/change civics etc without some input. Not to worry though as the next turn will involve a lot of micro if we do go for Lib as I suggested.

Some comments then:

a. Varanasi had a priest spec added by the governor which I missed please remove. Don't think there any others that I noticed.

b. If we change to pacifism our troop costs will increase though offset by the reduced civic cost and haven't checked the cost though we do have some money in the bank so some room to play with.

c. I set all cities to building wealth/running lots of specialists. Even starving down in Kyoto (though we would have Lib before its pop was reduced). Atm Edu is 5 turns though we can get it down to 4 by doing this. No idea how the golden age would help though to much counting involved. :)

d. I would prefer to keep Palitpura on Hindu missionaries and hopefully we can get Hammie to change though not at the risk of losing Lib.

e. If Liz (or the unknown civs get to Lib (perhaps they have??) It might be idea to run to monarchy/feudalism for LB defenders before finishing Lib/drama. If we get Hammy to close borders and stack LBs in Kyoto that will be an extremely tough nut to crack. Much better to spen a couple of turns than lose a city. :)
 
I'm fine with sleepless playing the turns he referred to above, I will happily play after he's finished.

No your ok to go ahead. Good luck on getting Lib.. :) I was only going to play a couple of turns prob to the end of Edu anyway. Beware of Liz though don't think she likes us.. :lol:
 
The other thing we should be looking at is giving/trading the AIs Liberalism to get them in free religion so we lose the -ve diplo. We can trade away Paper for cash (not an expensive tech) but would be good to get something for the rest but maybe unlikely. After we have Liberalism, not that big a deal holding onto the techs though...
 
Ok, I got the save. A few questions before the PPP.

I re-read the last few pages of this thread, and it's not clear to me if we have decided which city will be legendary#3.

I see VJ, Pata and Kyoto as contenders. At 1st glance, I would say Pata (2gems/1gold), for its higher commerce base - but this assumes we will be able to use the culture slider effectively. Not sure given the high troop upkeep costs. I think this needs to be decided (or clarified) before next turnset as the cathedrals are available to be built.

Civ4ScreenShot0166.JPG

c. I set all cities to building wealth/running lots of specialists. Even starving down in Kyoto (though we would have Lib before its pop was reduced). Atm Edu is 5 turns though we can get it down to 4 by doing this. No idea how the golden age would help though to much counting involved.
Do you mean to do it in all cities or only in the non-legendary ones? How about the troops/builds currently underway?
 
Nice turnset Sleepless. Feels like we're coming down to the business end of the game... if only we didn't have Aggressive AI threatening to wipe us out!

Building Wealth + Running specialists is just what I think we should be doing now. I do think that a Golden Age would be valuable now, even if it saves us only 1 or 2 turns to Liberalism. Reaching Liberalism isn't only about the possibility of a free tech, it also enables Free Speech, the most important civic for a cultural game. I suggest we risk beelining Lib and delaying Feudalism until afterwards.

Changing to Pacifism - I definitely agree with this. Goes with our predominantly artist specialist micromanagement policy.

If the unknown civ had learned Liberalism we would have been notified by the in-game log. However, even if we are beaten to it, I still think we should make haste in getting there - see above.

I think our best defence might be via diplomacy. Oz's idea about sharing the Liberalism tech to entice AI into Free Speech I think is a good one. Some other tricks we could employ
* If we can pick up Alphabet we can use spies to switch Hatty and Hammy into Hindu. I think we should focus our :espionage: on one of these two in anticipation of this.
* If we get declared on, cross our fingers and pray to be saved by the AP.
* As Sleepless noted, bribe Hatty or Hammy to stop trading with Liz.

Could we get some screenshots of the potential #3 legendary cities?
 
Are we at a point where we can estimate how many turns left in the game? I am hopeful that our win date is determined by how long it takes Delhi to reach Legendary, and the other 2 can be brought in line using GArtist bombs.

C63 - I assume that screenshot had some non-standard way of increasing the culture output in our cities? 145 :culture:/turn certainly doesn't sound normal while we are still in the 'teching-to-Liberalism' phase.

If we assume that we are about 10 turns to Liberalism (seems possible if we Golden Age), and then possibly another 10 turns to Nationalism, then Delhi's progress might be something like:
T161-T170: @30/turn, Total = 4450.
T171-T180: Free Speech + 3 cathedrals + some slider, @150+/turn ~= 6000.
T181-T185: Building Hermitage, improved slider, @200/turn ~= 7000.
T186-T???: Hermitage built, improved slider, @400/turn, end date approx (50000-7000)/400 ~= 107.
Victory turn ~= T290 = 1840 AD.

Might be able to make better assumptions about those numbers with a screenshot of the city.

T290 is just under 130 turns away. We might consider settling the GArtist in Bombay or Legendary #3. 120 turns of post-Liberalism for example assumes an average output of 34 :culture:/turn for a GA bomb. Bombay can easily match that with Free Speech + 1 (later 3) cathedrals = 14 * 250% * 120 turns = 4200. Plus we get the benefit of +3:gold: and +3:science:. Even a city with just a single Cathedral still has scope for a settled GA to be better than a bomb.
 
Oh my! Delhi really is doing much much better than I had thought :)

Working on my assumptions given earlier: 1) Liberalism in 10 turns, 2) Nationalism 10 later, 3) Hermitage 5 turns after that. I'll add another few assumptions: 4) Stupa built in 3 turns, 5) Cathedral built 7 turns after that, 7) Cultural slider maintained at 80% from when we hit Liberalism, 8) Base Commerce in Delhi once we hit Liberalism = 50, 9) Base commerce 20 turns after Lib (Villages maturing) = 70.

T161-163: 97*1.5*3 = 436.
T165-170: 97*2*7 = 1358. (Stupa built)
T171-185: (97+50*0.8)*3.5*15 = 7192. (Lib + Free Speech. Cathedral built)
T186-191: (97+50*0.8)*4.5*5 = 3080 (Hermitage built)
T192-242: (97+60*0.8)*4.5*48 = 33040 (towns matured)

Predict Delhi goes legendary no later than T242, which is 1660 AD.

That is actually a very good date for a cultural game. The question then is can Bombay and city #3 match that with bombs?

Culture Potential:
Bombay is currently producing 55 :culture: from buildings/religion. Expect that to go up a bit as 1000 year doubling comes in and perhaps some monasteries/etc get built. Let's say it gets to 70 from buildings. Rearrange it's current population from mines to farms/artists and it can support 4 artists. Base commerce looks about 23, multiplied by 0.8. Total raw :culture: = 70+23*0.8+6*4 = 112.

Vijay currently producing 20 from buildings/religion. Could go up to 40. It's already working max artists (5) and producing commerce of 17. raw :culture: = 40+17*0.8+5*6 = 83.6.

Patal could have similar buildings to Vijay, so call it 40. Grow one more pop and it can support 2 artists. Base commerce about 32. raw :culture: = 40 + 32*0.8 + 2*6 = 77.6.

Kyoto also similar buildings to Vijay, so call it 40. Grow to size 11. Ignore cottages and just work farms + artists, giving 6 artists (for most of the game, boost it while starving near end). Base commerce of about 15. raw :culture: = 40 + 15*0.8 + 6*6 = 88.

It looks to me like Kyoto > Vijay > Patal.

Kyoto also has the advantage of great production to get some cathedrals built. Obvious disadvantage is that we have to try really hard to defend the city if we're attacked!
 
@C63

I did set all cities to wealth and all cities bar Delhi to specialists. Lots of tweaking that could be done especially if we run a golden age as well. As it looked on the screen Edu was due in 4, lib 6 at a cost of about -16 gold per turn. If we can get Lib first it would be a bonus. Theres also the chance she might go consitution in which case we stand a very good chance. :)

As mentioned I'd prefer Palitpura to keep building missionaries for Hammie. If we can get him to convert thats lots of techs we will be able to pick up in trade. We also need a couple of Bud temples. Palit and Agra I believe though not so essential as we can build the Christian cathederals first anyway.

Might be worth keeping Kyoto on the Nat Epic then max artists once its built. :dunno:

@All Legendary cities.

For me it should be Delhi - Bombay - Kyoto. Bit risky with Kyoto's best food tiles to the East but lots of grass farms will mean its still productive even if we get attacked. With the later cost of GPs I do think all cities should have the cathederals. What is probably not worth building are more cultural buildings (i.e monasteries etc). With the addition of culture from artists once the cathederals are built probably better to build culture. Not sure though.. :confused:

National Epic/Gps

Picked Kyoto as its has a big food suplus and makes a good gp farm. It can always be moved and pick up the fail cash though think we should finish it off.

EP Points/Spies.

Of course we need alpha before building spies. So not sure how far off that is. :) I would split ep points between Hammie and Hattie with more emphasis on Hattie as:

a. Theres a good chance Hammie will swap without being forced as he is more Hindu than Buddhist now.

b. Because of above Hattie will probably need more ep points for a switch.

I did check the rates which were approx 750 ish to change religion but didn't change the ep points. Wasn't even sure we would have enough by the end to force anyone. :)
 
Draft PPP

Start Golden Age with GProphet
Switch civics from OR to Pacifism
Tech: Edu/Lib/Nat

City builds (until Lib)
Delhi - finish Stupa ->Wealth
Bombay - finish mandir -> wealth
Kyoto (legendary #3) - finish NE -> wealth
elsewhere - wealth

Missionaries, temples etc - just after we reach Lib - or Liz does it
Tile usage: Run as many artists as possible, not starving too much
worker actions - farm chop road etc

Diplo: be nice to everyone, but do not give up on our true hindu faith ;)

Stop if DOW or something unexpected happens.

Question: if a GA is born next, what to do with him? aj says:

T290 is just under 130 turns away. We might consider settling the GArtist in Bombay or Legendary #3. 120 turns of post-Liberalism for example assumes an average output of 34 /turn for a GA bomb. Bombay can easily match that with Free Speech + 1 (later 3) cathedrals = 14 * 250% * 120 turns = 4200. Plus we get the benefit of +3 and +3. Even a city with just a single Cathedral still has scope for a settled GA to be better than a bomb.

Not sure about the +3gold, and I'd rather stockpile the GA's - in the event we lose one of our cities we bomb them elsewhere. But I'll follow the consensus.
 
Yep I favour keeping the GA's as well for end of game bombs. Just have to be careful you choose the GA and not GP for the Gage as they are both on the same tile. ;)

Good luck C63
 
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