Venice - yay or nay?

For MP, by far the worst civ in the game. Good players will just surround you with cities and pillage all your trade routes rendering you useless.

beetle said:

I very much agree that a Swedish Diplo V is quite interesting, without feeling like its cheating.



I would love to see a Venice guild that walked through a CV, since, even with all the good advice on this board, I cannot make CV work. Also a non-cheesy Deity-level Dom guide with Venice is a pipe dream I think.

I had never purchased more than one SS part before trying Venice. I must say it was my smoothest SV ever, quite boring really.

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Well it's pretty hard getting a CV in an OCC so I imagine it would be quite tough with Venice, but it might be possible, especially if you get a religion, and vote it on WC.

You can send production cargo ships to Venice while you build archeologists. And another big plus would be that having lots of money can help you rush buy hotels, airports, etc.

Of course the minuses are the fact that puppets have 25% less culture (I don't know how this affect hotels and airports). Having 3 puppets from cs means that you have 2-3 less great scientists, so internet might be delayed. You will miss on many wonders, since you are slower in science. Some policies in aesthetics are not so strong. Cultural Centers won't help too much in the puppets, since they don't prioritize cultural buildings so you wind up rush buying them anyway, and Flourishing Of The Arts would only help in the capital unless you conquer some cities with wonders.

beetle said:

What part is fun exactly? I very much enjoy the double trade routes. Venice is a challenge, and I am kind of partial to the under-powered civs, but I feel like I am missing something? Any civ can be played OCC, so that does not seem so unique to me. Buying up CS is not really all that different from Austria’s UA.

I understand the arguments of, say, the Byzantium and Denmark fans -- and the Venice fans are just as vocal -- but I cannot figure out the appeal!

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It's subjective

I find that a game with Venice, along with playing one of the scenarios, is a good way to freshen things up when the game starts to get stale. As three out of the four victory conditions are performed best when using the exact same cookie-cutter strategy, that staleness is likely. Probably just that it's been out for a while now, and we're ready for the next installment (and an off-world tangent doesn't quite count.)

As for effectiveness, I don't think the pros outweigh the cons. My rule of thumb is that SP Venice plays at one difficulty level lower than a "normal" civ. Fun and different, but not quite up to par.

My favorite aspect of Venice as an inclusion into the game is finding AI Venice, particularly starting close to you. BIG bonuses:

- no need to scramble for map-grabbing. Their surrounding territory is yours for the taking at leisure.
- trading partner who will ALWAYS have the gold on hand for your extra luxes.
- need some cash? Get a THOUSAND gold or so by DoWing and hitting his trade routes
- while he doesn't leave himself completely defenseless, Venice itself is considerably less defended than other AI cities. Even more enticing because...
- Usually has optimal terrain and hordes wonders. Capturing AI Venice is often game-breaking

Love Venice

I don't play MP, so I can't speak to that. But I got my first deity win with Venice.

Wars are survivable with them. And once they're over, gold quickly returns.

The most frustrating thing about Venice is how interesting they are to play compared to how weak they are. The only reason they work in singleplayer is because of AI stupidity. It's not that their concept is terrible, either: with the right tweaks, they could definitely be made a lot stronger without changing their core concept of acquiring cities through MoV and no settling.

Here are a couple to demonstrate:

• Decouple all Great Person counters from one another. Great Person point scaling after each Great Person spawns is increased to compensate.
• Venice receives a MoV when they enter Classical Era instead of at Optics.
• Double trade route count is replaced with double trade route yield, both incoming and outgoing.
• Great Galleass is replaced with a Monument UB that gives +1 GM points and has 1 GM slot, letting Venice start spawning MoV from the very start of the game instead of having to rush Currency. The fact that it is a Monument UB also means that Venice benefits from Tradition's Legalism.
• Venice can change puppet cities' focus.
• Puppet cities under Venice will build buildings that give land unit XP (ie. Barracks, Armory, Military Academy).
• City-states are allowed to spawn as close to Venice as if it were a city-state.
• Bought-out mercantile city-states do not lose their unique luxury.
• If allowed, three extra city-states are added to the game if Venice is in the game.

I find the early game to be extremely boring as Venice, but late game wars without having to do too much empire-management is a really nice change compared to many of the other Civs. Don't really "love" them, but I like that they're there.

I dislike them. More often than not even an AI will just run circles and box me in

I've seen a couple of youtube videos where someone goes full honor and conquers the world with one city.

Venice may not have some super unit like Longbows or Keshik's, but there is a fairly popular video where someone basically uses a one city Netherlands and conquers the world. It really wasn't any kind of gimmick either, he basically just kept up the pressure all game.

Even without a great unit (well the Great Galleass but that is situational), if you are going one city there really isn't a better choice than Venice.

I know you will have to puppet capitals, but the video in question the guy basically razed every other city he came across.

If I weren't scared of getting laughed at I'd make one. Call it "Madmen of Venice" or something.

If I was trying to beat human players they'd be to worthless. I don't play multiplayer though, so they're just fine with me. A real change of pace. Being able to nick a city-state is more useful the harder the game is - part of the AI bonus becomes yours!

AI Venice is a notable member of my "Kill on Sight" list though. Can't stand that SOB.

When I first got BNW and tried Venice, I figured optimal play had to be all about the MoV. So opened Liberty and pupated the “best” CS -- ones sitting on Natural Wonders, luxes, strategics, lots-o-units, allies of my strongest opponents (or civs I was about to war), that sort of thing. In my games, I ended up owning half the CS, but I could not work a SV. I chalked Venice up as frustrating and useless for anything other than Diplo.

Quite some time latter I read on these forums that optimal Venice is Tradition, puppeting three CS within trade route range, use any other MoV for CS influence+gold, and play them pretty much like any four city tradition game. That works out so much better!

I hate it when I see good city locations and I remind myself that I'll never get those 2 horse 1 cow 2 stone silver city.

themathmajician said:

I hate it when I see good city locations and I remind myself that I'll never get those 2 horse 1 cow 2 stone silver city.

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That's one of the challenges of Venice. You have to change your perspective because the play style is different.

Its similar to occ except that you can buy cses.

sunbeam said:

I've seen a couple of youtube videos where someone goes full honor and conquers the world with one city.

Venice may not have some super unit like Longbows or Keshik's, but there is a fairly popular video where someone basically uses a one city Netherlands and conquers the world. It really wasn't any kind of gimmick either, he basically just kept up the pressure all game.

Even without a great unit (well the Great Galleass but that is situational), if you are going one city there really isn't a better choice than Venice.

I know you will have to puppet capitals, but the video in question the guy basically razed every other city he came across.

If I weren't scared of getting laughed at I'd make one. Call it "Madmen of Venice" or something.

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I just won another Venice game last night on King - I made sure I worked on science to steam through techs so I could have most up to date army, and the other civs mostly left me alone. America were starting to 'covet' so I bribed a few others to wind his neck in for him, you just have so many options with all that trade money coming in it's mad.
By the time it came to nukes I stockpiled as usual and started to take out Washington, everyone hated him by this point with all my bribing and I was in a war with 3 others against him so taking his capital only got me minor penalties.
I could have easily got a DV because I was so far ahead tech and had nukes and a sizable modern army due to buying CS with their units as well, but opted for diplo as I fancied a change from dom.
This civ seems to be the easiest for me to control - I just started playing King a coupe of weeks ago and struggled a couple of wins with other civs, butsteamrolled as Venice

Don't dislike, just find them boring.

I enjoy playing Venice for fun as it is typically low stress as it is very easy to manage diplomacy and to defend Venice and my purchased CS's.

Matthew. said:

Don't dislike, just find them boring.

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You don't dislike boring things?

Dislike implies not wanting anything to do with it, which isn't the case. I don't mind they are in the game, and even though I find them boring to play I can still enjoy the rare occasion I bother to play them, if I am in the right mood.

There are several Civs I "dislike" more than Venice, they just aren't my first pick since I prefer heavy expansion games.

I won my first game at immortal( 7th difficult) with Venice. It was a super Diplomatic Victory. I think it's one of the best civs in the game. You can have the first 2 cities after the capital quite faster with two merchants... Then i don't need any other city because with the trade routes and GMoV you can get tons of money especially if you get commerce.
Than the defense is not a problem because if you keep good relationship nobody will declare you war and if someone does 2/3 cities are easy to def even on higher difficult levels like 7-8.