India is so OP in BNW.... Peaceful Growth Guide

So, Delhi hit 40 population sometime in industrial, no one else had more than 20 pop at the time.



Emperor difficulty. Standard Pangaea. Limited myself to 3-cities for the achievement. Game won on turn 295, culture victory. Very ahead in tech due to population. Very quick game, with a lot of turns doing nothing / renewing agreements. Entire world joins me in Order a handful of turns before I win the game. Zero science specialists used until I ran out of space, no worker steal (Gandhi!), no reroll (thought it was a bad start actually: no desert/mountain/hills/jungle/coast... just a river, and lots of grass).

Now, I never ultimately lose on Emperor difficulty, but I also never win THIS handily without abusing the AI's lack of military sense... especially when I purposefully avoid a NC start. India feels very OP right now, or maybe it's just the dominance of any growth-based strategy. Anyway, I've only done this once. No idea if I just got lucky, but the AI all reacted the way I thought they would react, so it should be fine. Paying them off w/ 5gpt or 10gpt once red markers start appearing still works. Anyway, going to move back up to Immortal next and see if tall peaceful is really this easy in BNW. This game felt very broken.

More friendly AI, Slower early expand, Domestic food trade routes, Mid-game gold surplus, plus the Stacked research agreement bonuses (Porcelain Tower + Rationalism Policy) with all your friendly neighbors = India dominance.

Ok. So far we've heard that venice, assyria, zulu, and now india are OP. Let's see how long it takes for all of the civs to get declared OP. I bet it will not take two weeks.

Civsassin said:

Ok. So far we've heard that venice, assyria, zulu, and now india are OP. Let's see how long it takes for all of the civs to get declared OP. I bet it will not take two weeks.

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India is kinda funny and refreshing considering how many people though it would be complete garbage if it wasn't changed. Personally I was kinda concerned until I saw how you could use trade routes (we saw more around May and was essentially confirmed when we got to see MadDjinn play), then that concern changed for enthusiasm and perhaps even a little concern that it was going to be potentially OP.

Build a strong 3 or 4 city empire (3 if you want the steam achievement) and start using trade routes between your cities to provoke fairly quick growth. Hit major profit when you grow past 20 without breaking a single happiness sweat... Go GP crazy once you hit freedom with half food half unhappiness specialists.

Civsassin said:

Ok. So far we've heard that venice, assyria, zulu, and now india are OP. Let's see how long it takes for all of the civs to get declared OP. I bet it will not take two weeks.

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Haha! It's not India specifically, obviously. I hope the tongue-in-cheek tone came through w/ G&K's worst civ.

I was talking about the peaceful growth strategy in general, with Gandhi being just a poster child. Since India has no growth bonus, this will work with any "vanilla" civ that gets a river-grassland start and will be better for civs with non-violent bonuses.

Furycrab said:

Hit major profit when you grow past 20 without breaking a single happiness sweat... Go GP crazy once you hit freedom with half food half unhappiness specialists.

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Actually, by the time you get to Ideologies, the capital's population is almost maxed out... so no hospitals, no Freedom policies would be of any use. Order is much better, even for tall empires, especially for a civ with a happiness bonus. But, I guess it doesn't matter. You've won the game no matter how you choose to go from this point.

Isn't this strategy possible with any civilization? The Aztecs and Siam are probably the best for super tall growth. India just gives you extra happiness, which isn't exactly hard to get by other means. Should rename thread to food trade routes to your capital are OP.

Civsassin said:

Ok. So far we've heard that venice, assyria, zulu, and now india are OP. Let's see how long it takes for all of the civs to get declared OP. I bet it will not take two weeks.

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Indonesia will be the next one probably.

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adwcta said:

Haha! It's not India specifically, obviously. I hope the tongue-in-cheek tone came through w/ G&K's worst civ.

I was talking about the peaceful growth strategy in general, with Gandhi being just a poster child. Since India has no growth bonus, this will work with any "vanilla" civ that gets a river-grassland start and will be better for civs with non-violent bonuses.



Actually, by the time you get to Ideologies, the capital's population is almost maxed out... so no hospitals, no Freedom policies would be of any use. Order is much better, even for tall empires, especially for a civ with a happiness bonus. But, I guess it doesn't matter. You've won the game no matter how you choose to go from this point.

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Haven't actually tried it out yet, saying you got to 40 pop before reaching Ideologies?

Edit: Freedom is I want to say hands down the best at super tall. A level 1 tenet that will give you 10 or more food in a single shot, doesn't seem to be matched by anything in order (level 1 2 or 3)

Worth noting: the Culture victory now actually scales with difficulty, so I also can't tell if your turn 293 Emperor is "quick", although easy is probably a good assessment.

I've won culture anywhere between 250 and 275 on Every single civ I've played, exact same difficulty, which to this point is Shoshone, Spain, Morocco, and another I forget.... I didn't have a 40 pop City, but at the same time I managed to get all the important great work wonders. Give me a civ that will dominate religion at the same time (Ethopia, Boudicca, etc) or boost tourism late when it matters (French, Brazil) and I bet I can push a culture victory faster than that. India, while being friendly to tall strategies, isn't overly amazing that screams "powered" much less "overpowered."

e3do said:

Isn't this strategy possible with any civilization? The Aztecs and Siam are probably the best for super tall growth. India just gives you extra happiness, which isn't exactly hard to get by other means. Should rename thread to food trade routes to your capital are OP.

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This.

Furycrab said:

Haven't actually tried it out yet, saying you got to 40 pop before reaching Ideologies?

Edit: Freedom is I want to say hands down the best at super tall. A level 1 tenet that will give you 10 or more food in a single shot, doesn't seem to be matched by anything in order (level 1 2 or 3)

Worth noting: the Culture victory now actually scales with difficulty, so I also can't tell if your turn 293 Emperor is "quick", although easy is probably a good assessment.

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Yeah, 40 was hit in early Industrial, not Modern. Science was super easy by that point with RAs bulbing ever third turn, so I was almost in Modern before my workers finished improving the coal, and so I waited to take advantage of the Order faster factories + 25% science boost tenant to get to Internet unnecessarily fast.

If you're using domestic trade routes after aqueducts are up, the Freedom tenant doesn't help your capital much, just your other cities. My guys were literally working 3rd ring desert tiles where I put up a +2 gold trade post before the game ended because there were no specialist slots/real tiles left, and the last 20-30 turns, I recognized the problem and switched those routes to hammers. Definitely no food needed in your capital by the time you hit the Modern era.

And I missed Hanging Gardens too.... and only used two domestic trade routes (because I only had 3 cities). My only growth bonuses were 2 domestic LAND trade routes, swords to plowshares, tradition tree, temple of artemis, and a constant "we love the king!" day.

I'm pretty sure if you put your mind to it (I had zero focus on maritime CSs, missed Hanging Gardens, etc), used a better civ, had more than 3 cities, and actually had a good start (I had exactly one bonus food resource in the capital), you can hit 40 in Renaissance without breaking a sweat, maybe even Medieval? XP

edit: and no, I don't know if 295 is quick turn-wise. it's on standard speed. the earliest AI hit modern era at ~280. i'm not claiming it's quick turn-wise, just time-wise. it was a very quick next-turn next-turn play-through with very little thought put into it besides "MORE POP 4 DELHI" and "GIVE ALL AI 10 GPT". I also found it ridiculous to have double the AI's capital population, and then go in the span of 50 turns from being slight behind in tech to having to pay 200 extra gold for the RAs since I'm two eras ahead now with internet and globalization. besides the growth issues I mentioned above with the playthrough, i also didn't suggest any projects in the World Congress, paid very little attention to CSs not in my immediate vicinity, etc.

krozman said:

I've won culture anywhere between 250 and 275 on Every single civ I've played, exact same difficulty, which to this point is Shoshone, Spain, Morocco, and another I forget.... I didn't have a 40 pop City, but at the same time I managed to get all the important great work wonders. Give me a civ that will dominate religion at the same time (Ethopia, Boudicca, etc) or boost tourism late when it matters (French, Brazil) and I bet I can push a culture victory faster than that. India, while being friendly to tall strategies, isn't overly amazing that screams "powered" much less "overpowered."

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The main problem with India has always been that its UA gave happiness to facilitate more efficient growth, at an initial cost. In Vanilla, it seems it was amazing. So amazing in fact, that it had to be nerfed. This was due to how hard it was to manage happiness at the time, along with the horrible balance in the base game. GnK changed that by adding in Religion, which provided for large bonuses to happiness, which ultimately weakened India. BNW changes this again, by making happiness once again more scarce. With embargoes, lowered happiness from buildings, and a heavy handed change to unhappiness penalties, staying in the positive is not only harder but welcome, and with the gold scarcity getting golden ages are much more welcome affairs.

I don't personally think India has gone on to become overpowered. Anyone with Ceremonial Burial and a good number of converted cities would likely feel the same effect on their happiness and expansion as India, minus the initial happiness hit from founding cities. The difference now is that India's bonuses are now more tangible and real, with a powerful mid-late game, especially when Tourism and Ideologies start kicking in, as that extra happiness provides a buffer in the event of a non-dominant ideology.

In effect, it isn't India that has been buffed per se, but rather the value of happiness. A welcome addition too, I would say.

Civsassin said:

Ok. So far we've heard that venice, assyria, zulu, and now india are OP. Let's see how long it takes for all of the civs to get declared OP. I bet it will not take two weeks.

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Indeed; the HUMAN is OP in every single player game.

But if I were going to nerf anything, I'd start by applying the nerf bat to internal sea routes. (Limiting those to the same food or hammers as a caravan and having the cargo ship 2X advantage only apply to external routes.)

Civsassin said:

Ok. So far we've heard that venice, assyria, zulu, and now india are OP. Let's see how long it takes for all of the civs to get declared OP. I bet it will not take two weeks.

Click to expand...

I still think the Inca are the best civ in the game. Most civs I can play on Prince and keep up with the AI (before BNW, it used to be King), but with the Inca I can play a couple difficulties higher and keep up with the AI. Those free roads have become amazing since gold is so scarce in BNW. Build city connections and roads to nowhere to extend trade route length and prepare to be swimming in gold. On turn 150, I was making practically 130 gpt when the AI, at most, was making 30. (No movement penalty in hills is just a pleasant upside.)

But you are already on turn 256...you can have satellites by that time.

India's problem is that they reduce crazy amounts of unhappiness from tall civs, who usually don't have those happiness problems in the first place. Maybe they're best suited for defending against ideological pressure now?

In any case, there are civs better suited for insane tallness. Aztec floating gardens are very good for that, as noted before.

joncnunn said:

Indeed; the HUMAN is OP in every single player game.

But if I were going to nerf anything, I'd start by applying the nerf bat to internal sea routes. (Limiting those to the same food or hammers as a caravan and having the cargo ship 2X advantage only apply to external routes.)

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+1 to that statement.

Winning on Immortal was never so easy for me as with my current Venice game.

Btw. I don't see how having a 40 pop capital city is exclusive to India. I had a 39 by 1700 with Shoshone on Emperor in my first BNW game. Its just a matter of ferrying in those trade routes plus a few farms and buying all the maritime CS.
I don't have alot of happy problems when going tall with tradition so India is not really needed. And if its UA does not make a big difference don't call it OP.

Edit: adcta has 48 happiness in his first screenshot. As 48 is clearly not needed I say he could have done better with any other CIV except India.

Tabarnak said:

But you are already on turn 256...you can have satellites by that time.

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With BNW I find that really hard . usually just hit sattelites around 300 now..

I won culture victory on emperor with Zulus and chose tradition/aesthetics/autocracy. Ulundi had 44 population.

I dont think this has much to do with India being OP. Its all about internal trade routes.

joncnunn said:

Indeed; the HUMAN is OP in every single player game.

But if I were going to nerf anything, I'd start by applying the nerf bat to internal sea routes. (Limiting those to the same food or hammers as a caravan and having the cargo ship 2X advantage only apply to external routes.)

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Only three things are guaranteed in life:
1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Post expansion pack patches

Number 3 is probably one month away. It will be interesting to see what the developers take away from all of the post release comments and what gets changed.

adwcta said:

Haha! It's not India specifically, obviously. I hope the tongue-in-cheek tone came through w/ G&K's worst civ.

I was talking about the peaceful growth strategy in general, with Gandhi being just a poster child. Since India has no growth bonus, this will work with any "vanilla" civ that gets a river-grassland start and will be better for civs with non-violent bonuses.



Actually, by the time you get to Ideologies, the capital's population is almost maxed out... so no hospitals, no Freedom policies would be of any use. Order is much better, even for tall empires, especially for a civ with a happiness bonus. But, I guess it doesn't matter. You've won the game no matter how you choose to go from this point.

Click to expand...

I got it. I was making fun of the way overused term OP. I agree that some civs are better than others, but OP? Hmmm...