SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout

Note that the map doesn't stretch all the way to the west, we can see 2 more English cities that aren't shown.
 
This map is unbelievable huge... I'm starting to wonder if we need to build a second settler pump in the north. Wow!

Gengis raised an excellent point in his last comment. Now, we're not committed to playing the variant yet, but I have my reasons for wanting to play it - but the time to start strategizing is now.

First - there are no doubt some teams with some awfully strong players on them, and if any of these teams pursue an early domination/conquest win, we will be hard pressed to be competitive.

Second - and this may sound a little insane here - early diplo wins are tough to achieve, and GK is onto something. IMO, the key to winning the variant does not lie in building a bunch of panzers and capturing the U.N. It lies in setting a tech pace to the modern era that is absolutely blistering. If we're on the very best of terms with everybody that's left, then it should not matter who builds the UN - as long as they build it.

Remember - the variant bonus is not for the highest-scoring variant win. It's for the fastest. Stop and think about this for a minute:

Score does not matter. Only speed.

What do you guys think? Do you want to try the variant?
 
First of all, I would love to try the variant :) Makes a change from covering the map in blue...

Second - got it!

Third, I am just working up a dot map for RCP 9 which looks like it has some outstanding squares. However, RCP10 isn't half bad either, and on a map this size, we could quite easily have very large cities in terms of area/tiles and still get over the limit for optimal city number/corruption.

Anyway, I'll do RCP 9 for now, I will post it later.

FYI - I will play my turns tomorrow morning I think, or maybe very late tonight if there has been plenty of discussion from everyone. Also, I am away from tomorrow for two weeks. I will be able to post but will only be able to take my turns if a rather old PC of mine or my laptop will run C3...

Tal
 
OK, forgot to say, nice turns, Gengis :)

Here's the map. A few notes...

All red spots are RCP 9 (i.e. either 9 or 9.5 units away from Berlin). As you can see, there are lots. I have highlighted the initial footprint of the 4 cities I believe to be the strongest.

The sites available near Russia are more tricky - I would not expect them to last very long, in fact I am sure a settler will sprog from Moscow fairly soon to claim some of those nice river/BG squares. The question is, what do we want to do about it?

Tal
 

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@Tal: What are your thoughts on your turns? Any ideas?

@Q, Tweed: You guys with us? Thoughts on playing the variant?

@Team: What do you guys think about starting a second settler pump in the northeast? Say...Munich?
 
scoutsout said:
@Tal: What are your thoughts on your turns? Any ideas?

@Q, Tweed: You guys with us? Thoughts on playing the variant?

@Team: What do you guys think about starting a second settler pump in the northeast? Say...Munich?

More exploration, this should be easy with the number of scouts now in the field.

Continue settler pump, settle the city near the iron first, then try either for one near Russia or the hill site with the incense, depending on what happens.

Maintain a strong military to prevent bullying demands - nothing worse for diplomatic relations than telling the AI to go take a running jump...

Here's a thought, also... Two of the city sites I emphasised in the dotmap are ports, and with map-making being widely known already, we should make founding a port city a top three priority, in my opinion... Meeting the other civs first will be a massive economic, scientific and diplomatic boost.

As for the second settler pump, I say yes, asap. There is a desperate need for a quick 6 settlers...


Tal
 
Tal - I took your dotmap and played with it for just a few minutes. I have pointed out some RCP9 sites that all have access to fresh water. This will save us the cost of building (and maintaining) aqueducts. I would like it if the whole team would take a look at the dotmaps and offer comment.

It's real important that we develop the strategy together...

 
Some other questions:

Konigsberg: Temple in 6. Do we need it? Or is it time to switch to Pyramids as a Great Library pre-build? (GK?)
 
scoutsout said:
Some other questions:

Konigsberg: Temple in 6. Do we need it? Or is it time to switch to Pyramids as a Great Library pre-build? (GK?)

In the save I received, GK has already changed the pre-build to Palace, in 86 turns, so don't worry!
 
Tallanas said:
In the save I received, GK has already changed the pre-build to Palace, in 86 turns, so don't worry!
Okay, I feel silly now. :D (Sorry GK...)
 
Don't feel silly! You're not psychic, after all...

As for your dotmap, much better - I also see you picked up on the two deliberate errors! :mischief:

I like the yellow sites you have highlighted in the NE and SE - better than the red ones I highlighted, I think. The middle one you ringed would be my choice for next city to be built, after the green one (in 2 turns time, that settler is already on the way...), but how I would love to steal one of those southern sites from Cathy :)
 
First, great turns GK :goodjob:

Both dotmaps at RCP 9 look fine, we grab the incense and start getting a port city online. I'm generally a big fan of not building aqueducts if not necessary. I agree w/ Tal about the spots closest to Russia. I think Cathy will get those (for now). We're nowhere close to fighting her for those.

Settler factory from Hamburg is fine. That's some great land up N, and we will need to secure that horse relatively soon. This continent is just huge, I'm a bit worried about how hard it will be to fight corruption and to find a suitable FP site.

I say to try for the variant. Keeping Joanie up to speed will help her research better, and we'll just keep the tech pace quick. It will be nice to find the other continent- I'm hoping it's to the east and not the west!
 
@Tal: 'deliberate errors'? :hmm: :spank:

@Q: Good point on port cities. Tal spotted one up north that would be a decent port city. We need to get some galleys out and meet the other AI... not sure Hamburg would be a good settler factory... need more food. Perhaps in the NW near the ivory... we have floodplains up there that we're irrigating.

another @ Tal - if you don't mind, let's give Gengis and Tweed a chance to get in on the discussion before you play. Would you mind waiting a day?

@Tweed: It's been a couple of days since you've posted to the thread... are you still with us? You're 'on deck'...
 
scoutsout said:
another @ Tal - if you don't mind, let's give Gengis and Tweed a chance to get in on the discussion before you play. Would you mind waiting a day?

No problem, I will play tomorrow morning rather than tonight, so Gengis and Tweed have about 14 hours from this posting to catch up and speak now or forever hold their peace...

Tal
 
@Tal: Thank you. This will give us some time to get Tweed into the discussion and let Gengis weigh in on some of this stuff.

In looking at the dotmaps, that floodplain site NE of Konigsberg might make a decent (if removed) secondary worker pump.

Somebody mentioned something about land grab competition from Cathy. Why might that be less of a concern at the moment?
 
scoutsout said:
@Tal: Thank you. This will give us some time to get Tweed into the discussion and let Gengis weigh in on some of this stuff.

In looking at the dotmaps, that floodplain site NE of Konigsberg might make a decent (if removed) secondary worker pump.

Somebody mentioned something about land grab competition from Cathy. Why might that be less of a concern at the moment?

Unless I'm missing some sort of trick question here, the only reason I can think of is that there is more to be gained by settling elsewhere, nearer our core. We are not actively trying to shaft Catherine yet, so to speak. If we do decide that a war is necessary, we can do that later. No sense putting the cart before the horse...

*Edit* - I will check in with the thread and any PMs tomorrow morning before I play. Let me know if you have anything further to suggest...
 
Dot maps look good guys. I like the yellow outlined flood plain city, red circled dot, yellow dot, then aournd the circle. I'd start with the green, then go either red's(to the NW) or towards Russia to prevent them from grabbing them.

If we're going for the variant we can buy & sell some techs to Joanie to get her caught up. We're also going to want to get some suicide galleys in the water ASAP to meet the other nations. At that point we'll see where they're at, and if they're a ways ahead of us we can introduce everyone to each other to further speed up the tech pace.

If we're going for quickest UN win, any war we make will just cripple a Civ and slow down the tech pace. This map apears big enough for us to get down a couple solid core rings of cities peacefully. If we get lucky we might be able to go through the entire game with only making a single war(to capture the UN).
 
Ok, here come my turns :)

Pre-flight Tyre Kicking

90 gold, 8gpt which will increase soon; lots of scouts out (heh!); HBR in 7, and 3 AI civs to wheel and deal with; no barbarian warning from Helmut...


IBT - barbarian galley moves into view, but gone are the days when 10 horsemen pile off them, thank god...

Turn 1 - 1225 BC

Lots of scouting; check diplomacy, nothing much has changed, and the price of useful techs is still too high.

IBT - Frankfurt Warrior; Leipzig Worker; Forest harvested near Berlin, BG revealed

Turn 2 - 1200 BC

More scouting - no barbs. Impossible to MM Berlin to delay settler to coincide with city growth. Set worker tasks - irrigating ivory near Leipzig, and decide to road new BG square before mining, as the settler pump works fine and the spices need to be connected.

I now believe the French are somewhere south of England and Russia. Found no trace of them yet... Russia have 502 gold and are still up 3 techs. Cathy wants 110g, 1gpt and our map for her world map. I guess it must be drawn on sheets of inlaid gold, with diamonds representing cities...

IBT - Russia offers us Mysticism for 70g. I try to swap Mysticism with Mapmaking, hoping she won't notice. She's unimpressed, and I abort the deal... Settler produced in Berlin.

Turn 3 - 1175 BC

Heidelburg founded - going to be a tough city to improve. More exploration, some intersting discoveries... An inland sea beneath Minsk and plenty of bonus resources/trade goods. France still lack HBR, only 4 turns to go... Come on!

IBT - Barb appears out of the Black above Munich... grr!

Turn 4 - 1150 BC

It's all happening with the exploration - barbarian camp, cows galore... But best of all is the discovery of shallow seas to the northwest - surely the other continent!

The bad dude slaughters the barbarian near Munich. Russia up to 526 gold, we are up to 14gpt profit. No real change in diplomatic climate.

IBT - Barb horseman appears above Munich - definitely 25g to be had here...

Turn 5 - 1125 BC

The Dude (now capitalised) kills the horseman and discovers the camp - on mountains, of course... Warrior attacks other barb camp (also on mountains) and wins with one health left - 25g pocketed, and Coventry discovered...

More worker activity, the Empire is improving rapidly in some key areas... Berlin's cycle has been ruined by the foresting! MM as best I can, think it's sorted.

Diplomacy frustrating - no real changes, and England and Russia still want huge amounts for map making.. At least we have Writing already...

IBT - More horsemen appear in the far SE

Turn 6 - 1100 BC

Archer kills horseman. Up to 16gpt profit now, and have quite the bankroll... Still no diplomacy changes, and we get HBR next turn... Actually, there has been a change! Apparently, Lizzy has betrayed the French! Is there a war between them? I can't tell, as we have no embassies... That might explain the lack of cash and advances in France and England... It only costs 48 gold for an embassy with France, 46 for England. Tempting.

IBT - zip.

Turn 7 - 1075 BC

Sages learn HBR - set them on Literature at 40 turns. Immediately trade HBR and WM for Mysticism and French WM - could have got a few coins too, but Joan has 8g to her name. Don't want to bankrupt her. As I thought, Joan is WAY south... Not a good start location for the Frenchies... Hmm, a thought strikes me - the French have MM... How odd. Check around our neighbours. Lizzy and Cath want WM and 190 for map making - Joan only wants 190 gold. I barter down a bit, to 120g and 3gpt, then 99g and 4gpt. Take this latter, hoping to up the tech pace a touch. Leaves us with 102g, 13gpt profit and tech parity on this continent. Nice :)

I now have a tough call. Berlin is still off-cycle. I decide not to waste a turn's production by changing settler to temple for one turn. Berlin will grow in two, and sprogs a settler in 1 turn. Can MM Berlin to produce a military unit, whilst emphasising growth. Back on track...

Not much happens militarily, start roading second ivory.

IBT - Archer killed by horseman in SE. Bah!

Turn 8 - 1050 BC

Nuremberg founded - needs to be connected to a road asap, as it is our galley building port. Settler produced, queue in Berlin set to warrior. Settler decides to head south, to try to grab nice land near Russia. Warrior from berlin accompanies the settler.

IBT - zip

Turn 9 - 1025 BC

Not much happening - settler moves south, 3 workers move up to road towards Nuremberg, and improve that site. All work parties now have warrior escort unless they are well within our borders. Second continent discovered to be 2 squares in size! :blush: I am still convinced that we can see distant coastal waters though...

Spices now connected - makes happiness management easier :)

IBT - I was right - France was at war with England, and now Russia has been dragged into it, declaring war on Lizzy at the behest of France. Ouch. Bang goes the tech pace on this continent :rolleyes: It will perhaps enable us to get into a strong position, but I am sure it is not for the best overall..

Turn 10 - 1000 BC

Sir Dude destroys an encampment in the north, 25g cha-ching! Shame he can't promote any further really! Another two barb camps discovered, 50g up for grabs.

As a final move, I bought England's World Map, for our territory map and 18g. I wanted to give England a bit of cash, as she is fighting 2 enemies. I want fair play! Having said that, look what France did with the cash we gave her! Gace it all to Russia, who now has a monstrous 700g... Ah well...


State of the World

The war is not good, but overall I am happy with my turns. We have mapped virtually the entire continent, found the other continent, and achieved tech parity. Our finances look good (143g, +23gpt) and our Literature gambit and Library pre-build look well set (37 turns for Lit, 36 turns until we finish the palace...). Militarily we are doing ok - the barbarians are being controlled, and we have suffered only light casualties. The spices are connected, and our settler expansion is looking good. We have a port, building a galley, and plenty of workers. Munich is building a granary by the way. This is a long term investment, but is up for discussion in the between-turns round table chat. *Edit* P.S. Helmut is warning of barbarian tribes near Konigsberg... just FYI.

Screenies to follow.

Over and Out


Tal
 
The Empire...
 

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