Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

If you are updating *everything* into the big design thread its ok... but we need some way to coordinate. I'm often adding/editing mild tweaks to the design threads linked to by

i will be updating finalised stuff to that thread. its about time we had everything finalised in one place. plus itll be a useful reference. So, if you wouldnt mind can you link me to all the things you believe are finalised and i will add those.
 
What about subterranean? Only building on hills is harsh but the dwarves get hammer bonus from their UB forge. What else are you guys thinking? Extra health? Less health?

Maybe give subterranean civs a 10% food storage in all cities?
 
i think subterranean civs should get access to special improvements that allow the teleportation of units from one to any other of the same improvement within a range (like air bases in vanilla civ) Opera is working on something like this for her new plant civ and i have asked her to supply me the code when she works it out :). i think this on its own is more than enough to compensate only being aloud to build on hills (and to help defend their lands agains faster moving units).
 
maybe they should be able to airdrop to nearby tiles and teleport to different cities to represent being able to defend nearby city tiles.
 
maybe they should be able to airdrop to nearby tiles

i think only airdropping on tiles with the specific improvement is better. even though theyre dwarves and skaven, how will they quickly dig up through solid ground before the enemy moves off? they would definately need a ready made tunnel entrance. but teleportation from the improvement to city and back are good i think.
 
So something like Fort improvements only available to subterraneans?
 
So something like Fort improvements only available to subterraneans?

pretty much. though i dont think we can link that to the actual trait, we can still make it part of the civ to balance the trait.
 
True, if the trait is present with multiple leaders we can just make it a civ feature and have things not tied directly to the trait.

How about conqueror? This trait lets players build enemy civ buildings and units right? For the conqueror civs we need to make sure conqueror allows civs to expand beyond their basic builds. Like the Hung are a perfect candidate for Mongol style evolution where they get siege weapons from other civs (just like when the mongols got it from one of the chinese nations they overran).

I mean, chaos civs scream massive machines of war, and raving hordes of madmen but those machines came from somewhere. Wow, if the hung conquered empire, guns guns guns for everyones.
 
How about conqueror? This trait lets players build enemy civ buildings and units right?

were changing this mechanic in warhammer. theres a bit of discussion on this at the start of this thread.
 
How about conqueror spawning extra units from the conquered city? I like the idea of causing problems when a conqueror civ rolls up on a city though. The AI doesn't need to understand it, they just *get it* when their stack of doom parks outside a city, you know, when it decides to CONQUER!

I think the random spawning of units from the conquered civ is a good tho. Would make the chaos player treasure those steam tanks they salvaged from defeated enemies (something that is consistent with the Realm of Chaos system).

Does the AI treasure those units? Who cares, the AI still gets free spawns everytime they conquer a city.

Regarding Conqueror, should we tweak the Leaders xml to make conquerors more likely to declare war, I think so!
 
Psychic_Llamas said:
Spoiler Unit Classes :

none as of yet

Deadliver and I will be compiling a list of these as we go through the Unit XMLs. Here's a rough and unfinished list, btw. Tagstyle, of course.

<Class>UNITCLASS_WARRIOR</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_AXEMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_SPEARMAN_WARBAND</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_MILITIA_SWORDSMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_MILITIA_SPEARMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_PIKEMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_ROYAL_GUARD</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_ARCHER</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_MILITIA_ARCHER</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_CROSSBOWMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_ANCIENT_CAVALRY</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_LANCER</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_CHARIOT</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_HORSE_ARCHER</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_RED_DRAGON</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_TROLL</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_GIANT</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_HEDGEWIZARD</Class>

Psychic_Llamas said:
Agnostic {0}
Cannot adopt any state religion, religions spread slower through your cities.
Who has this?

Psychic_Llamas said:
Agricultural {5}
1 extra food on tiles that already provide 4 food.
Financial {11}
1 extra gold on tiles that already provide 2 gold.
I don't see the point of these. And, for the record, I liked the regular BTS civ Financial trait a lot better.

Psychic_Llamas said:
Arcane {10}
Provides the &#8216;Potent&#8217; promotion to all: Arcane units
+2 turns summon duration.
+10% Research
Excellent trait.

Psychic_Llamas said:
Preservationist
Provides the &#8216;Empowered 1&#8217; promotion to all: Recon and Beast units.
What leader/civ would use this?
 
Who has this?

no one. its just left over from FF

What leader/civ would use this?

Durthu :)

I don't see the point of these. And, for the record, I liked the regular BTS civ Financial trait a lot better.

theyre both 2 ofthe strongest traits IMHO. what was the old financial?
 
Expansive {9}
+2 Health
Weak. Add 50% cheaper settlers?

I agree. Adding that makes it more balanced.

Industrious {10}
1 extra Hammer on tiles that already provide 3 Hammers.
This is likely to be too strong; the only good AIs in past were the industrious ones because of the bonus hammers.
How about adding +25% worker build speed, +25% wonder build speed, and +1 bonus hammer on tiles with 4 hammers.
Still might be too strong with clansmanship civic, which might need a nerf.

I like it, except for the possible nerf on clanmanship.
Magic Resistant {3}
Provides the &#8216;Magic Resistance&#8217; promotion to all: Melee, Ranged, Recon, Shock Cavalry, Ranged Cavalry, Arcane, Divine units.
There is the question of whether we want this to be a leader trait, or to just put the magic resistances into the dwarven racial promotion.
Also; we aren't sure that magic resistance really protects from anything except "magic" damage. That is, it has no impact on fire, poison, death, holy, etc.

I think this&#8217;d be better as a promotion available after like Combat3. Or something. (Needs better prereq promotion.) Point is make it a promotion, not a trait please.


Subterranean {5}
Can only build cities on Hills.
Wildborne {5}
Can only build cities in Forests or Jungle
I think we might need to re-evaluate subterranean, and I don't think the wildborne is a good idea.
I think these are likely to be too restrictive in where you can build cities, the AI is already pretty bad at city placement.

I 2nd that. AI is too inherently stupid for this. Drop Wildborne. And we should bring up Subterranean somewhere. Needs some serious discussion in the team forum imho.

Twisted {1}
Provides the &#8216;Mutated&#8217; promotion to all units (excluding Heroes, Workers and Settlers)
Potential problem; I worry that adding the "Mutated" promotion doesn't actually mutate the unit (ie adding mutation promotions), it just prevents the unit from being mutated again.

I get what you&#8217;re going for here. But I&#8217;m really not seeing it. Just leave &#8220;Mutated&#8221; as a promotion. I don&#8217;t think it needs a trait. It DOES need a mechanic so that, as Chaos gains ascendancy, Mutated starts to cause more Chaos benefits.



I think we need to remember the key is that there should be 3 or 4 traits. For example, Arcane right now. Then there are like 5 weak traits.
 
extra food is a bonus for civs who love to run the horde civic iirc. There is some civic that uses food for unit hammers.

edit: @ rlaf, maybe twisted could be tied to warpstone resources? I'd love to gain extra warpstone if twisted buffed my wretched mutant hordes.

Maybe my chaos champions spawning units could be a civ trait?
 
Point is make it a promotion, not a trait please.

its both :D

I get what you&#8217;re going for here. But I&#8217;m really not seeing it. Just leave &#8220;Mutated&#8221; as a promotion. I don&#8217;t think it needs a trait. It DOES need a mechanic so that, as Chaos gains ascendancy, Mutated starts to cause more Chaos benefits.

twisted is specifically for Morghur (beastmen) if you know his backstory you will know his very presence corrupts the soil and all life nearby. thats why the woodelves hate him so much.

if people really dont like the mutation idea im not sure on an alternative. so suggest away!
 
Maybe give subterranean civs a 10% food storage in all cities?

This and +1 health.

I think subterranean civs should get access to special improvements that allow the teleportation of units from one to any other of the same improvement within a range (like air bases in vanilla civ) Opera is working on something like this for her new plant civ and i have asked her to supply me the code when she works it out . i think this on its own is more than enough to compensate only being aloud to build on hills (and to help defend their lands agains faster moving units).

Cool idea. BUT to what end? The goal of traits is not mechanic of that nature. It sounds way OP too.

i think only airdropping on tiles with the specific improvement is better. even though theyre dwarves and skaven, how will they quickly dig up through solid ground before the enemy moves off? they would definately need a ready made tunnel entrance. but teleportation from the improvement to city and back are good i think.
Sounds OP. The idea is not really for the Skaven to take over the world. Let&#8217;s face it. As much as they try, they&#8217;re like Pinky and the Brain, NOT good at taking over the world.
And the Dwarves are too busy fighting the Greenskins to take over the world. Not to mention, there&#8217;s too much unmined gold, gems, and silver.

So something like Fort improvements only available to subterraneans?

Like this. But I&#8217;d prefer it be on its own. As an improvement for Subterranean civs. But not attached to this whole OP idea of Dwarves and Skaven popping up halfway across the world. And might I recommend it be a Dwarven thing? Can you really see Skaven setting up fortifications beyond those required as &#8216;city walls&#8217;?

How about conqueror spawning extra units from the conquered city? I like the idea of causing problems when a conqueror civ rolls up on a city though. The AI doesn't need to understand it, they just *get it* when their stack of doom parks outside a city, you know, when it decides to CONQUER!
If we&#8217;re gonna have this trait at all, which I&#8217;d prefer we NOT, I&#8217;d like it to be reworked a lot. As pointed out earlier, there are too many UUs and too many factions for this to be a viable trait, at least if it&#8217;s similar to the FF conqueror trait. If it was reworked so that it was maybe a combo of aggressive and raiders, I&#8217;d go for it. But I&#8217;d recommend it be something civs like Kurgan, Hung, and Norsca *might* be given, to reflect Chaos&#8217; desire to overrun the world. And it would fit nice with Crom. It&#8217;s already in his name. ;)

Who has this?
no one. its just left over from FF

Makes sense. I assume we&#8217;re gonna nix it? I don&#8217;t see a viable use for it.

What leader/civ would use this?
Durthu
Could I see a bit of lore on Durthu then? I&#8217;ve no clue who this leader is. I saw him/her and was like&#8230;?...who is that? Lore&#8217;d be nice please. :)
 
twisted is specifically for Morghur (beastmen) if you know his backstory you will know his very presence corrupts the soil and all life nearby. thats why the woodelves hate him so much.
Ah, ok.

if people really dont like the mutation idea im not sure on an alternative. so suggest away!
Maybe something similar to the Svaltafar recon unique promotion "Sinister" (a la FF), but in trait form. If you follow me.

Point is make it a promotion, not a trait please.
its both
And what's the purpose of that? Cuz it just seems redundant to me. And I like the promotion only idea best. It ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
Maybe give subterranean civs a 10% food storage in all cities?
This and +1 health.

how is this flavourful? 'oh i live underground, theres so much food there and no one ever gets cold or sick!' ---nope
Cool idea. BUT to what end? The goal of traits is not mechanic of that nature. It sounds way OP too.
Dwarves are ALL pretty much move 1. if the brettonians invade there is no way in hell they will be able to catch the fast moving horsemen. having a little more mobility within their borders is not OP plus it is flavourful, fun and has a purpose.

As for skaven, they pop up out of no where fast and disappear faster. it is flavourful. besides, these tunnels have nothing to do with the subterrainean trait (i thought i explained that). just because one trait is all negative dosnt mean you have to add random things like food and health to it. but balance it out in different ways.

Sounds OP. The idea is not really for the Skaven to take over the world. Let&#8217;s face it. As much as they try, they&#8217;re like Pinky and the Brain, NOT good at taking over the world.
And the Dwarves are too busy fighting the Greenskins to take over the world. Not to mention, there&#8217;s too much unmined gold, gems, and silver.

its not OP if we place restrictions on distance between improvements, and if we make only one unit per improvement per turn can move.

If it was reworked
yess... we decided this already. were trying to come up with an alternative. read the thread ;)

Could I see a bit of lore on Durthu then? I&#8217;ve no clue who this leader is. I saw him/her and was like&#8230;?...who is that? Lore&#8217;d be nice please.

of course ;)
"Durthu is one of the oldest Treemen of Athel Loren, able to remember a time when no Elf would have dared to enter the woods. Like many of his kind, he looks back onto these days with longing, remembering the peace when no other mortal being disrupted the balance of the trees and animals. However, the hate he has once felt for the younger races has now been replaced by mild irritation, bearing witness to the fact that, given enough time, even the most stubborn creatures can change.

Curiously, the reason for Durthu's change of mind were the Dwarfs. Shortly after the Asrai began to settle within Athel Loren, a bunch of adventurous Dwarfs set foot into Durthu's forest, cutting down many trees and even taking their axes to the treemen himself, mistaking him for a well grown - and highly combustible - oak. The scars Durthu received that day were never fully healed, but none of the Dwarfs survived that day. Anyway, the Dwarfs' deeds had opened Durthu's eyes to the respect the Asrai held for the woods (opposed to other mortals, at the very least). He also valued their part in the encounter - letting Durthu take care of the Dwarfs on his own, only stepping in to drive fleeing Dwarfs back toward the Treeman. Unfortunately, the scars of this battle ran deeper than just on Durthu's surface. While the other treemen tend to sleep for years at an end, Durthu remains awake, waiting for new foes to appear. "

It ain't broke, don't fix it.

exactly. the trait works in FfH, it worked in warhammer, its not gonna change ;)
 
I'm leaning against subterranean at at all... the build only on hills can be hugely frustrating as a player. I think its enough to just give dwarves hill combat bonuses, like wood elves get forest combat bonuses.

How about conqueror spawning extra units from the conquered city?

Maybe... I'm kindof against getting foreign units though. Chaos with imperial tanks just feels wrong. We're trying to make each faction's armylist only represent their units.

Unit classes:

Spoiler :

<Class>UNITCLASS_WARRIOR</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_AXEMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_SPEARMAN_WARBAND</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_MILITIA_SWORDSMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_MILITIA_SPEARMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_PIKEMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_ROYAL_GUARD</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_ARCHER</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_MILITIA_ARCHER</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_CROSSBOWMAN</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_ANCIENT_CAVALRY</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_LANCER</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_CHARIOT</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_HORSE_ARCHER</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_RED_DRAGON</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_TROLL</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_GIANT</Class>
<Class>UNITCLASS_HEDGEWIZARD</Class>


Some important ones you're missing:
Knight, Warchariot, hunter, ranger, beastmaster, handgunner, cavalry, crusader, priest, missionary.
I don't see the point of these. And, for the record, I liked the regular BTS civ Financial trait a lot better.
Agricultural boosts food yields, and so encourages a specialist economy. Financial encourages cottage economy or water tiles. And regular BTS Financial trait *does* give +1 commerce on tiles that already generate 2 commerce. So I don't know what you mean here.
I like it, except for the possible nerf on clanmanship.

Clansmanship is something of a no-brainer civic atm, its the best in its class. Every game I played, it was one the reasons why it was easy to roll the AI, because I had much larger hammer output than they did.
I think this&#8217;d be better as a promotion available after like Combat3. Or something. (Needs better prereq promotion.) Point is make it a promotion, not a trait please.

?
It can be both. You can either learn the promotion normally, or get it for free from the trait.

I get what you&#8217;re going for here. But I&#8217;m really not seeing it. Just leave &#8220;Mutated&#8221; as a promotion. I don&#8217;t think it needs a trait. It DOES need a mechanic so that, as Chaos gains ascendancy, Mutated starts to cause more Chaos benefits.

Again, its just another method of getting the promotion. Normal mutation by magic still stays there.
Aggresive trait gives the combat 1 promotion to a bunch of units; but that doesn't mean that other leaders can't learn it normally when they gain levels.

And what's the purpose of that? Cuz it just seems redundant to me. And I like the promotion only idea best. It ain't broke, don't fix it.

I like the mutated trait for Moghur.
Think of it this way; normally, most chaos civs only get to mutate their units by getting access to Tzeentch magic and using the mutate spell.
With Moghur, he is so twisted that all his units automatically *start* mutated - and lack any means of getting rid of the negative mutation options.

Mutation is a promotion, but it isn't a selectable level-up promotion; it is applied only by spells or events, or a few units (chaos trolls and chaos giants) start with it. This mechanic will remain unchanged. The only difference is that ALL of Moghur's units get the mutation effects immedieately on creation. Mutation remains as it was (and like it is in FFH) for all other leaders.
 
Dwarves are ALL pretty much move 1. if the brettonians invade there is no way in hell they will be able to catch the fast moving horsemen. having a little more mobility within their borders is not OP plus it is flavourful, fun and has a purpose.

If Bretonnians invade the dwarves, it *should* be tough for the dwarves to chase them down. Thats the weakness of dwarves. Roads will help them catch units, and they will have incentives to get the +1 moves from road tech faster, and the imperial roads tech faster. 2 moves on roads, +1 with some tech (I forget what it is in Warhammer), + even more with imperial roads, lets even 1 move units catch up with cavalry stacks.
Otoh, it is also going to be very hard for the Brettonnians to break the dwarven defenses.

I see no need for mechanics that get around the slow dwarven movement. They *should* have to suffer from their slow movement, thats part of their playstyle.
I don't like the health bonuses or food storage either. If anything subterrannean would have more problems with food than others; its harder to grow food if you live underground.

But subterranean doesn't *need* to have any other effects. Its not there as a mainline trait that gives bonuses, its just a mechanic that is best expressed in trait form.
As I said I'm leaning towards removing it, but we can definitely just leave it in the current form for now.
 
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