Orbis mod

Guys, everyone agrees we don't need minor leaders for WH. Nothing to see here, moving on.

Also, if we do use the fort commanders, then I suggest strongly against making them buildable; they are very, very powerful, and they make defense vs the AI far too easy, since the AI doesn't understand that it needs to focus on the fort and take it out fast, or lose its stack thanks to massive bombardment.

Also, if we adopt the Orbis bombardment system, we need to tone it down a little (and/or remove defensive strikes); archers are too powerful in that mod.
We should make it though so that archer bombardment doesn't take up the units movement/healing chance
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i agree on all points, except you cant build fort commanders anyway. u only get them via spell if you are on a fort no? oh do you mean cannot build forts?
 
Ahriman said:
Yes. Or if so, only at very late tech (advanced engineering?). They are incredibly powerful.
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I think that you should be able to build forts. Yes, forts are OP. But so what? That's what they're sposed to be.
As long as the AI doesn't spam forts, which they shouldn't on the FF code, I think we're ok. I think we should have the ability to build forts at a middle tech like Feudalism.

I do think we should use the part of the Orbis mapscript that causes several forts to generate at map start whether you can build forts or not. And have them upgrade like this: Tower-->Fort-->Castle-->Citadel. Castles & Citadels should act as cities for combat purposes, of course.
 
I think that you should be able to build forts. Yes, forts are OP. But so what? That's what they're sposed to be.
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No, the purpose of balance is to prevent highly overpowered mechanics.

The game needs to be a challenge, even when the human player plays to the best of their ability; otherwise the game isn't much fun.

The game isn't much of a challenge when the AIs never pose any real threat and you don't have to defend your cities with much, because any incoming AI stack gets destroyed by your fortresses of doom.

We shouldn't include mechanics that are easy for the human player to exploit over the AI, and the AI fundamentally doesn't understand the forts; it doesn't know that you have to take them out *fast* or risk massive damage and lose your huge stack.

I think we should have the ability to build forts at a middle tech like Feudalism.
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I disagree with this strongly if forts are as powerful as they are in Orbis.
Forts if included should be minor support (only able to bombard units down to ~80% or so), or should be very late-game only.
 
Ahriman said:
only able to bombard units down to ~80% or so
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So, why not do this? You can build forts but they can only bombard down to 80%. The Player won't be able to abuse them. The AI might see the use of them. (At least in Orbis, IIRC the barb AI saw the use of Goblin Forts very well.)
 
Would it be simple to link fort evolution to tech? Allow people to build the base fort and restrict it from growing to the better ones until you discover advanced engineering? Same could be done with fort commanders possibly?

I tend to rely on taking over preexisting forts myself in FF.
 
deadliver said:
Would it be simple to link fort evolution to tech? Allow people to build the base fort and restrict it from growing to the better ones until you discover advanced engineering? Same could be done with fort commanders possibly?
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Huh, that's an idea. Could be done similar to how the UFs got extra bonuses with techs in 1.5.
 
Yeah, the AI seems to like building forts on resources anyhow. Was the ship issue with ascity forts fixed ever? Ships used to appear onland in FFH2. Never saw it myself in either FF or FFH2
 
I don't know if it was. I know there's been no complaints about in FF or FF+.

Haven't used Orbis in while. I know they reworked Naval combat a lot though. Just DLed it a day ago. New ships. Some ships have different bonuses. Etc., etc. Not a bad naval design. More versatile than FF, FfH, or FF+.
 
Re forts on resources, I think this is from the civ mod component that had culture spreading forts (which is what I presume the orbis ones are based on). Basically what the AI does is build forts on any resource within their cultural borders but not within a city BFC. The fort in that mod harvests the resource, but doesn't give the tile yield bonus, which is irrelevant since they're not in a BFC, and the fort increases the culture border slightly.
 
No, forts in Orbis aren't based on any existing modcomp. Well, they weren't. With patch I, the mechanic will be changed slightly :)

IIRC, forts harvest resource in BTS.
 
You & 1000s of others. :lol: And yeah, IIRC fort harvested resources...actually all the way back to Civ3. I've been playing Civ since Civ2.
 
Ahriman said:
I've been playing civ since Civ1, which I bought in stores... I'm old. :)
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Ah yes, Civ1, the best game I'd ever played at the time, though Prince of Persia (i think it was CGA) was rocking too.

So back to forts, what about be able to build forts and require tech advances to have them evolve?
 
So back to forts, what about be able to build forts and require tech advances to have them evolve?
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That would require a lot of extra coding. The only way atm to have improvements actually change is either through turns (like cottage and current version of forts) or by building over them with higher level improvements with workers (some improvements work this way in the DuneWars mod).
There isn't currently a mechanic that allows techs to replace one improvement with another. I would guess that such a change would involve dll editing, and I don't see that this would be valuable enough to try to do that.
 
It's possible and even easy to specify a tech needed for an improvement to begin to upgrade (using the turn system). So, if you don't have the tech, the thing won't upgrade; but when you do have the tech, it will begin to upgrade :)
 
It's possible and even easy to specify a tech needed for an improvement to begin to upgrade (using the turn system). So, if you don't have the tech, the thing won't upgrade; but when you do have the tech, it will begin to upgrade
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I hadnt' thought of combining the two mechanics, thats a very good idea. By setting the upgrade time = 1 turn, you also have instant upgrade.

Very interesting.

However, when thinking about it, delaying upgrade of the castle feature was never really the issue. The castle isn't overpowered, only the commander bombardment is overpowered.

I still oppose having this mechanic be powerful, since it isn't one the AI understands well, but it does look like we have the tools then to implement this however we want.
 
Well, remember that it is always possible to make the AI learn to do things. However, in the case of Fort Commanders, it will certainly be hard. Well, unless we write something in the AI code stating if a unit is held and has ranged attack, it should check if there's enemy units in its vicinity (being it's operational range); then each stack would be given a value and the unit would attack the stack with the highest value... but maybe we would want this ONLY if there's a real danger...

Ah, AI coding... :eekdance:

It's better when you just have a value to change. Like, say... Increasing the value of a building if it is UnhappyProduction. Easy one :) But then the trick is to push the AI to let itself be overwhelmed by unhappy citizens ;)
 
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