CDG Series Discussion Thread

Anyways, I'm going to try and build the crazy April Fools map I've been wanting to build for a while tonight. If It looks good enough, I'm going to claim April Fools day for myself. This map will be heavily tampered, and I mean heavily! Acken got to surprise everyone with it last year, but since this series has rotating hosts the only surprises will be on the map lol.

I was checking out the CDG spreadsheet in Stormtrooper's signature, that thing is quite wonderful. I am glad I finally got my name on there. SCLB seems to be kicking all of our butts, he has 90 points followed by Blatc with 89. I am in last with 7 lol. Not that this is a competition or anything, but its still interesting to see where the achievement points stand now that we are almost through the first quarter of the series.

Blatc said:

Have your views on achievements changed?

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No, I am just being a total hypocrite when it comes time for dolling out points for my maps!
If you can suggest some that should be trimmed, I would welcome that feedback!

beetle said:

I could not open the Brazil map. So I rolled another Byzantium map and got one that was the most interesting so far (not OP, interesting).

So now I have two maps that are worth sharing, and it seems a shame to make one wait a month. How about a double header?

Domination is designated VC. Proposed revised achievements for Byzantium map follow, all point values conservatively borrowed from previous CDG.

• Wreak havoc with the UU (16 points available):
  • Clear your continent with mostly only the UU, 4 points.†
    †Starting warrior (may be upgraded), Scouts, scarchers, CS gifts are all okay. No turn limit, so UU may be upgraded too.
  • Taking cities with only the UU, 1 point each.‡
    ‡Stacks with the above. Must be before you unlock either Compass or Chivalry. CS are fair game if you like. Capped at 10 points max, but we’ll see if anyone gets close to that!
  • Build or purchase 5+ of each UU, 1 or 2 points.*
    *Keep them in battle and alive until victory. You can upgrade them, obviously.
• Religious Domination (12 points available):
  • Get a Reformation belief, 1 point.
  • Fill out Piety, 1 point.
  • Each rival Holy City converted at the end of the game, 1 point each.
  • End the game with yours as World Religion in the WC, 2 points.
  • End the game with your religion as the most populous, 2 points.
  • End the game with your religion in half of all cities, 4 points.

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This adds up to 30 points. You could trim it down to:

1) clear your continent with mostly UU (may be upgraded) - 4 points
2) win DomV with mostly UU (i.e play entire game with 'mostly UU/upgraded UU' criteria) - 5 points
3) each rival Holy City converted at the end of the game, 1 point each, 4 total
4) End the game with yours as World Religion in the WC, 2 points
5) one point each for Reformation belief and completing Piety - 2 points total

That's 17 points.

Blatc said:

That's 17 points.

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Looks better, thanks. I would like something for the UU versus the upgraded UU though. Maybe the first one?

Wild_Woojsha said:

I was checking out the CDG spreadsheet in Stormtrooper's signature, that thing is quite wonderful.

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Yes, terrific work. Did we decide on zero points if you do not achieve the designated VC?

beetle said:

Looks better, thanks. I would like something for the UU versus the upgraded UU though. Maybe the first one?


Yes, terrific work. Did we decide on zero points if you do not achieve the designated VC?

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He wants PM's if there are errors, I'd send some over if you are worried. Regarding decisions though, I have forgotten what all we decided except to keep points at around 20.

Blatc said:

This adds up to 30 points. You could trim it down to:

1) clear your continent with mostly UU (may be upgraded) - 4 points
2) win DomV with mostly UU (i.e play entire game with 'mostly UU/upgraded UU' criteria) - 5 points
3) each rival Holy City converted at the end of the game, 1 point each, 4 total
4) End the game with yours as World Religion in the WC, 2 points
5) one point each for Reformation belief and completing Piety - 2 points total

That's 17 points.

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really good work

regarding the spreadsheet, yes the non-designated VC doesn't count, I believe we settled on that before the series started. Also, yes, PM me if you see anything wrong

Blatc said:

win DomV with mostly UU (i.e play entire game with 'mostly UU/upgraded UU' criteria)

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We should discuss this one more. Skipping melee ships would be so sub-optimal that I think it would take too much fun from the game. There is another continent to get to. What about a counter to air?

So how about this for the mostly UU achievement: 1 point per city, +1 per cap, +1 per civ eliminated. Capped at 10 points.

3/4/5 are good.

stormtrooper412 said:

yes the non-designated VC doesn't count, I believe we settled on that before the series started.

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I do not recall that it was settled, except maybe in consentient’s mind. But it is your spreadsheet, so you get to decide. As much I respect that, I might keep complaining!

I think it is bad for the series if “didn’t play” is not distinguished from “tried and won the game but could not win via preferred VC”.

I also think most of the achievement points should not be available to someone who does not win via the preferred VC -- but that seems to happening pretty organically.

But it is probably a bigger detriment to the series that we already have one game with unbalanced achievement points, and now one that requires paid DLC.

beetle said:

We should discuss this one more. Skipping melee ships would be so sub-optimal that I think it would take too much fun from the game. There is another continent to get to. What about a counter to air?

So how about this for the mostly UU achievement: 1 point per city, +1 per cap, +1 per civ eliminated. Capped at 10 points.

3/4/5 are good.



I do not recall that it was settled, except maybe in consentient’s mind. But it is your spreadsheet, so you get to decide. As much I respect that, I might keep complaining!

I think it is bad for the series if “didn’t play” is not distinguished from “tried and won the game but could not win via preferred VC”.

I also think most of the achievement points should not be available to someone who does not win via the preferred VC -- but that seems to happening pretty organically.

But it is probably a bigger detriment to the series that we already have one game with unbalanced achievement points, and now one that requires paid DLC.

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I guess wins outside of the designated victory type could just be designated as a C, S, Di, or Do across that game on the spreadsheet. If ST412 wants to take the time to do that, that is one solution. Otherwise, I'm fine replaying the map until I get as many points as I can. It's kind of a slog though...

Anyways, I was also wondering whether the map creator's victory counts when they built the map. Did we decide on that one? I think they should count, since map knowledge (While helpful) doesn't determine a win or a loss in any way, shape, or form. Plus any of us can open up IGE and see how crazy the map is when we start.

Also, should MAC users get a 10 point handicap since their using an inferior product to play this game (I troll, but seriously, I think its a pain for those poor souls due to CIV's coding...)

Wild_Woojsha said:

I was also wondering whether the map creator's victory counts when they built the map. Did we decide on that one?

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I barely remember that being a point of debate. In the DCLs did not submitters sometimes play? Consientiant played his CDG maps, I have no idea if ST scored them, but why would he not? As you observe, rolling the map is not much of an advantage -- even if you decide on achievements after you play!

I think its a pain for those poor souls due to CIV's coding.

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What disadvantage do you think we Mac users suffer? I have never played V under Windows, but from everything I can infer, the in-game experience is exactly the same!

At one point we did not have “MODS” on the main menu, but that bit of the UI has caught up now. We cannot use mods that depend on DLL, and that is all of the interesting ones, but does not effect core game play. I think maybe we Mac users have fewer options for screen resolutions? But that is not much different experience than people playing using a range of videos cards. What are you thinking of?

I will say that games not honoring UI conventions generally, and not using the native file browser in particular, is more of a disadvantage to Mac users as compared to Windows users. But V is hardly alone with that offense!

Also, MAC (all caps) is an acronym. You mean Mac (like a name) for Macintosh. But probably you know this ... and have successfully trolled me.

I offered achievement point guidelines earlier in this thread, ranging from 1-6 points based on difficulty
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14148263&postcount=60
These were based on what had happened so far and my personal opinion on what was reasonable. CDG #8 and #9 followed these guidelines and their achievements seem to be well received.

In the absence of someone committing to taking over as host, the success/failure and enjoyment of this series will depend on people communicating and listening (i.e. reading posts) to each other and making an effort to agree on such guidelines, offering input, and, when necessary, compromising.

Regarding VCs, for example: Consentient was putting the work in and I consider the VC requirement closed. If you strongly disagree, set up a poll with a clear end point/date and let the CDG participants decide, after which we should all respect the outcome.

As for CDG #9 requiring DLC, my posts in this thread tried to resolve the potential for such an issue. The 0 PMs I received indicated it wasn't a big concern.

Blatc said:

CDG #8 and #9 followed these guidelines and their achievements seem to be well received.

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Agreed, good job! Thanks to IF too!

In the absence of someone committing to taking over as host, the success/failure and enjoyment of this series will depend on people communicating and listening (i.e. reading posts) to each other and making an effort to agree on such guidelines, offering input, and, when necessary, compromising.

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Excellent points.

Regarding VCs, for example: Consentient was putting the work in and I consider the VC requirement closed.

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Fair point too, and a reasonable position on your part.

If you strongly disagree, set up a poll with a clear end point/date and let the CDG participants decide, after which we should all respect the outcome.

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Good idea, and I might do that, but I seem to be the only one arguing that restricting VC is not compatible with the original discussions regarding aims for the CDG. I can’t win the argument with the host, since he left, so my preference is either be quiet and resentful or to keep complaining until I feel like more people have explained patiently why I am wrong!

As for CDG #9 requiring DLC, my posts in this thread tried to resolve the potential for such an issue. The 0 PMs I received indicated it wasn't a big concern.

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No, the 0 PMs indicated that we lack volunteers that are able and interested to do the test required or to make a fix for others. The public feedback you got, from myself and others, was highly indicative that some of us would have problems with the map you posted. Rather that roll a new map, you chose to post the one you had. It looks like an interesting map! So much so that I will no doubt purchase the extra DCL as some point...

beetle said:

What disadvantage do you think we Mac users suffer? I have never played V under Windows, but from everything I can infer, the in-game experience is exactly the same!

At one point we did not have “MODS” on the main menu, but that bit of the UI has caught up now. We cannot use mods that depend on DLL, and that is all of the interesting ones, but does not effect core game play. I think maybe we Mac users have fewer options for screen resolutions? But that is not much different experience than people playing using a range of videos cards. What are you thinking of?

I will say that games not honoring UI conventions generally, and not using the native file browser in particular, is more of a disadvantage to Mac users as compared to Windows users. But V is hardly alone with that offense!

Also, MAC (all caps) is an acronym. You mean Mac (like a name) for Macintosh. But probably you know this ... and have successfully trolled me.

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I've never played it on a Mac, I'm just a PC Master Race troll who automatically thinks being stuck playing this game on a laptop's onboard graphics will make the experience worse. My experience with Mac OS enabled ports of MS Office have been atrocious, and I've heard other stories and see the Tech support forum is always going off for Mac users, but I have no idea if its really worse or not. Clearly not for you, but maybe your using a Hackintosh with a 980 ti???

Mac version works for me. The only difference is the mods available.

Wild_Woojsha said:

...being stuck playing this game on a laptop's onboard graphics will make the experience worse.

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I am on a 5 year old iMac and the game runs great! Judging from some of the technical assistance questions I see, my experience is better than people using new (but low end) Windows PCs. When CiV first shipped, the video cards used by contemporary iMacs but when Firaxis starting supporting a wider range of laptop onboard video cards, things improved for Mac users a great deal!

I can’t disagree with you about MS Office for Mac being atrocious, but that is Microsoft, not Apple. I am subscribed to the Mac Tech support forum, where I see people being redirected from general tech support, but I still don’t know what you are talking about there -- aside from complaints about mods not working.

I had the pleasure of rolling a very nice Siam map recently and the thought occured to share it via this challenge series.

The screenshot of the start position is below for any feedback (good? bad? ugly?)

If people think it is ok I will send the save to the host (incidentally who is the host?)

I like it. But don't send the savefile until you have worked out the achievements at least roughly

fimbul said:

I had the pleasure of rolling a very nice Siam map recently and the thought occured to share it via this challenge series.

The screenshot of the start position is below for any feedback (good? bad? ugly?)

If people think it is ok I will send the save to the host (incidentally who is the host?)

Click to expand...

MMMMMM.....Petra! Yummy.

Went through the map and it seems kind of ok. Came up up some achievements mostly to see if midgame pushes with siam's elephant was in any way useful to science victory.

Victory Condition related: Win SV before
<200 (5P)
<220 (4P)
<240 (3P)
<260 (2P)
<280 (1P)
Points doubled if done without reloads

Other Achievements to promote mid-game pushes:
1 Point for every Ancient/classical/medival wonder in your possession (max 6P, excludes oracle, MP, Petra, pyramids, HG, boro)
Have Peak BPT of >2000 (2P)
Acquire 24 social policies/tenets (2P)

feedback welcome, although activity here seems low :s

fimbul said:

Went through the map and it seems kind of ok. Came up up some achievements mostly to see if midgame pushes with siam's elephant was in any way useful to science victory.

Victory Condition related: Win SV before
<200 (5P)
<220 (4P)
<240 (3P)
<260 (2P)
<280 (1P)
Points doubled if done without reloads

Other Achievements to promote mid-game pushes:
1 Point for every Ancient/classical/medival wonder in your possession (max 6P, excludes oracle, MP, Petra, pyramids, HG, boro)
Have Peak BPT of >2000 (2P)
Acquire 24 social policies/tenets (2P)

feedback welcome, although activity here seems low :s

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As a general rule, not just for this particular set of achievements, it occurs to me that finishing time should be weighted more than the other achievements. Obviously, going backwards and adjusting previous games would be rather unwieldy, and I'm not suggesting it here, but if this series is ever reset I'd suggest finishing time point totals be doubled and the rest become just a bit more stingy.

Doubling points if done without a reload is a pretty good idea and addresses that and most here seem to be pretty honest about such.

What are the thoughts behind excluding some Wonders? How can one exclude the glorious Petra?

2000 BPT seems a bit excessive to me, considering I've rarely allowed a SV game to last long enough to get to that number. To get 2000 requires more cities than I'd usually go for in a SV, so is this pushing towards a scientifically based semi-expansive game? Perhaps a sliding scale for awards (1200 bot = 1 pnt, 1600 = 2 pnts, 2000 = 3 pnts as a suggestion).

I like the idea of 24 social policies.

Shark Diver said:

As a general rule, not just for this particular set of achievements, it occurs to me that finishing time should be weighted more than the other achievements. Obviously, going backwards and adjusting previous games would be rather unwieldy, and I'm not suggesting it here, but if this series is ever reset I'd suggest finishing time point totals be doubled and the rest become just a bit stingy.

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That is totally contradictory to the original aims for the series. If anything, I think we should be giving less emphasis to finish time.

Also, finish time is its own reward. No reason to give points for that. People work to win quickly as it is. Especially given that finish time is the metric for every other series. Scant attention to finish time for achievement points is a distinguishing feature of this series!