mitsho
Deity
the bazaar comes later while the Dutch UA is available from turn 1. That's a pretty big advantage already, if the other AI still buy them for the overpriced standard gold amount.
The Netherlands (pre-release thread)
- Thread starter Montov
- Start date
Heinage
Khan
While being an advantage, it's also completely backwards.
The Arabs were trading far earlier the Netherlands, in fact before the Netherlands even existed in any shape, way, or form.
The Netherlands became a trading power in the 17th century, however this UA makes them a trading nation from the get go.
I don't know, it's just that I feel this could have been implemented a lot better but I will reserve final judgement until I see it in action.
What about letting the Netherlands be the only Civ which can export imported luxuries (while retaining 50% of the happiness of the imported luxury). This would actually serve to make the flavour more realistic because you would constantly be looking for ways to buy and sell like a real merchant.
And I don't think that it would totally unbalance things, would it?
Edit after some more thinking:
...Though I guess that it may not work as well in multiplayer as you would be less likely to trade with them if you know it gives them a major bonus...
....And I also guess that the tulips unique improvement is really powerful actually....
....so maybe I should stop complaining....
But when you get Astronomy or Navigation you probably already have more than one of each resource you settled near, and the gold you get by selling it isn't as useful as it would be earlier in game.
It also depends on the difficulty you're playing on. It's not too strong in higher difficulty levels where happiness can pose a problem.
It also depends on the difficulty you're playing on. It's not too strong in higher difficulty levels where happiness can pose a problem.
Does the AI have enough money at turn 1?
I actually like the idea, but at this point I don't expect such an overhaul anymore.
There are a lot of ways to improve trading/diplomacy for the Dutch, like providing bonuses with Open Borders and Declaration of Friendship. I feel they've mist an opportunity here.
Heinage
Khan
That would make it even weaker than it already is.
I would support this idea of activating it later on if they had something else added to their UA, like...
- Custom House tile yield doubled and free Great Merchant with Economics (Nice)
or
- 1 extra gold from coastal tiles (rather bland)
or something completely different to celebrate their artistic qualities (think of all the famous dutch painters) as well as at the same time encouraging their progressive politics (through faster acquisition of social policies):
i.e. - Faster Great Artist birth rate (Nicest and adds flavour)
mitsho
Deity
There's enough money around to start selling as early as you have hooked up something. Otherwise what would be the bonus for the Dutch? It would be a very weak UA and the other Uniques would need to be better. This way is gives you essentially 240
and 2 
instead of 4 , which is powerful early on but locks you out of a conquest type game.
KillingMeSoftly
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2011
- Messages
- 279
Why? Civ isn't meant to be 100% historical, or most of the Civs we have couldn't be played in the 4000 BC start.
I think the ability is fine as is. The bazaar may be stronger, but it also comes later. Early advantages have a habit of snowballing. A Netherlands player will be able to set up his trading empire before the Arabians get theirs off the ground. At least now the Netherlands aren't a blatantly more powerful Arabia. There's also something to be said about the tulip farm and the extra luxury there that no one else will have, which you can surely trade. The Sea Begger is going to be a Privateer replacement for sure. Map dependant of course since it's naval, but definitely fits the theme.
Netherlands will be fun. We really needed another Trader/Commercial focused Civ. So many warmongers/expansionists...
There's enough money around to start selling as early as you have hooked up something. Otherwise what would be the bonus for the Dutch? It would be a very weak UA and the other Uniques would need to be better. This way is gives you essentially 240
Yeah I think this bonus will be better in the higher difficulty levels when the AI is rolling in cash at the start, compared to the lower difficulties, where they're dead broke.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
True. We also have Carthage, which will be the naval money civ. But the Dutch are the great luxury trading civ.
Ulthwithian
King
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2012
- Messages
- 733
I find the comparisons to Arabia quite interesting.
I will say that the Netherlands is quite a bit better at having a smaller Empire than Arabia (of which all of their Uniques help with a wide Empire). This could translate to better culture VC capability for the Netherlands, as well as doing better on smaller maps in general.
I will say that the Netherlands is quite a bit better at having a smaller Empire than Arabia (of which all of their Uniques help with a wide Empire). This could translate to better culture VC capability for the Netherlands, as well as doing better on smaller maps in general.
I guess I'll play Netherlands in a colonial style, creating cities to distant places where I discover new luxuries and allying with City-states. Then building a strong navy to defend my colonies. Kind of like in real history. 
A sidenote: If the AI really uses navies and strikes to distant targets and makes invasions as promised... it's going to be super awesome.
A sidenote: If the AI really uses navies and strikes to distant targets and makes invasions as promised... it's going to be super awesome.
Well, here's another aspect to the game, the UA of any Civ must go unjudged until we've played the game and see how it works while getting the benefits of your religion, which obviously adds a LOT more customization to your Civ. This is still by no means a BAD ability (although i was under the impression it was better) and it obviously can be a powerhouse under the right circumstance.
vanDietsland
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 35
Also there are more luxuries to trade in G&K's.
confirmed at this moment (15-5-2012 Czech article) are,
- Citrus
- Porcelain
- Salt
Not confirmed
- Tulips
confirmed at this moment (15-5-2012 Czech article) are,
- Citrus
- Porcelain
- Salt
Not confirmed
- Tulips
AbsintheRed
Deity
Also confirmed luxury resources:
Truffles
Jewelry
Crab
and maybe Copper
With Jewelry and Porcelain unique to mercantile city states
Tulips unique to the Dutch
If Happiness is your focus, trading luxary VS luxary will net you +2 Happiness compared to standard civs (except Arabia with markets)
AND it may trigger "We love the King's day".
However, I'm not sure I would want to start near marshes : it's a poor and dangerous tile
AND it may trigger "We love the King's day".
However, I'm not sure I would want to start near marshes : it's a poor and dangerous tile
SammyKhalifa
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2003
- Messages
- 6,308
I'd think that with so many additional sources of happiness, they're going to have to make unhappiness worse for balance. Right?
Maybe yes, maybe no. It's pretty certain that with the diplomatic changes, the trade AI will also change. So selling and buying luxuries might be very different. Allying CS is definitly going to be different.
So there's no way to tell how all of this will affect happiness throughout the game. I can't imagine that they would not change anything. On the other hand, if getting luxuries from CS and other civs gets harder...
I guess it'll be balanced to have only a certain amount of luxuries depending on how many civilizations there are. Just like with city states.
I do wish they would remove the 'the ai gets more happiness then you, deal with it' thing.
Higher difficulties should be harder because the AI uses better tactics and optimizes certain things. Not because they are showered with gifts to give them a head start.
I do wish they would remove the 'the ai gets more happiness then you, deal with it' thing.
Higher difficulties should be harder because the AI uses better tactics and optimizes certain things. Not because they are showered with gifts to give them a head start.
Good thinking.
Dangerous for the enemy, yes. It slows down an enemy invasion and makes it easier to destroy them.
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