Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

Brainfreeze. Apologies. You will have to buy *magic* promotions on your heroes; unlike college mages or elementalists, you don't get them for free as the heroes upgrade because the heroes aren't actually upgrading into other units.

Ok. That, I think, is fair.
 
Lizardman Mechanics:

This is a very complex design, but i hope it will be workable. im morethan happy to do these guys if everyone else is too intimidated by it :p
Spoiler :

  • Unique Feature Synergy:

    The Lizardmen see themselves as the guardians of the Warhammer World and as the defenders of the sacred places left by the Old Ones. They have a close link with Unique Features, ESPECIALLY those directly related to the Old Ones:
    Lizardmen start being able to see all unique features on the map like the Elohim in FfH

    Marks of the Old Ones: 6 Unique features that only appear on the map if Lizardmen are in the game (we should be able to code this easily using python, editing the map generation scripts). They provide mana-like 'Old One tablets' which will enable special wonders to be built if they are linked up by a road. these wonders give the Slann Mage-Priests an additional spell depending on what tablets they get (these tablets can also be found by exploring dungeon like ‘Old One Ruins’) they will also grant affinity to Slann and Skink Shamans, so the lizards will really, really want to get access to all the monuments.
    Additional mechanics could be:

    In addition, some unique events can pop up when a lizardman unit steps on the unique feature ie one could spawn a Settler and 2 skink Braves, or a Temple Guard if the appropriate tech has been researched.

    The 'Old One Tablets' are only revealed by the 'Magic of the Old Ones tech' to both Lizardmen and Amazonians.

    Spoiler Marks of the Old Ones :

    • Monument of the Sun
      • tile yields 2 gold +1 happiness in nearby cities. +3 line of sight.
      • provides ‘Tablet of the Sun’ resource (affinity = Holy strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the Sun' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the Sun' Wonder. Requires ‘Tablet of the Sun’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Enables the construction of the 'Solar Flare' Ritual which alows the world spell 'Solar Flare' to be cast (only by slann mage-priests.) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Solar Flare: All enemy units gain the ‘Temporarily blinded’ promotion, and deals minor holy damage to all enemy units.
    • Monument of the Moon
      • tile yields 1 gold 1 hammer. allows units to air lift up to 3 squares away.
      • provides ‘Tablet of the Moon’ resource (affinity = Unholy strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the Moon' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the Moon' Wonder. Requires ‘Tablet of the Moon’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Enables the construction of the 'Eclipse' Ritual which alows the world spell 'Eclipse' to be cast (only by slann mage-priests.) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Eclipse: All Friendly units gain the ‘Eclipsed’ promotion which allows them to enter rival territory and is invisible in forest and jungle, they are also 25% resistant to all damage types and magic. Removed at end of turn.
    • Obsidian Column
      • tile yields 2 Hammers. +33% defence to all units within 3 squares.
      • provides ‘Tablet of the Earth’ resource (affinity = poison strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the Earth' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the Earth' Wonder. Requires ‘Tablet of the Earth’ resource.+10% Ritual construction speed. Enables the construction of the 'Earthquake' Ritual which alows the world spell 'Earthquake' to be cast (only by slann mage-priests.) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Earthquake Identical to the spell in Gods of Old.
    • Temple of Constelations
      • tile yields 2 gold. Units within 3 squares have the 'Hasted' promotion. (OR Explorable Master Lair if that wont work)
      • provides ‘Tablet of the Stars’ resource (affinity = Lightning strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the Stars' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the Stars' Wonder. Requires ‘Tablet of the Stars’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Enables the construction of the 'Meteor' Ritual which alows the world spell 'Meteore' to be cast (only by slann mage-priests.) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Meteor: Identical to the spell in Gods of Old.
    • Mirror Pools of Tepok
      • tile yields 2 Food. Cures disease, plague etc. +100% heal rate.
      • provides ‘Tablet of the World Pond’ resource (affinity = Cold strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the World Pond' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the World Pond' Wonder. requires ‘Tablet of the World Pond’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Enables the construction of the 'Tsunami' Ritual which alows the world spell 'Tsunami' to be cast (only by slann mage-priests.) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Tsunami: Identical to the spell in Gods of Old.
    • Smoking Caverns
      • tile yields 2 Hammers. Explorable Master Lair.
      • provides ‘Tablet of Flame’ resource (affinity = Fire strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of Flame' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of Flame' Wonder. requires ‘Tablet of Flame’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Enables the construction of the 'Eruption' Ritual which alows the world spell 'Eruption' to be cast (only by slann mage-priests.) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Eruption: Turns all peaks adjacent to the caster into a volcano and causes them to erupt destroying all improvements around its base, and damaging cities enemy units like earthquake.

  • Unit Spawn mechanic:
    “Every Lizardman city has its sacred ponds and expanses of marsh where the spawning occur. Skinks and kroxigor tend to spawn in ponds and swamps open to the sky, whereas Saurus are usually spawned in dank subterranean caverns. Pyramid temples are frequently built over the top of the entrances to such caverns and outlying swamps are sometimes made into rectangular sacred ponds. Some days after the spawn have been laid it hatches into tadpoles which grow larger and more powerful by the day, feeding on the enormous number of tropical insects that hover above the waters. When the lizardmen are fully developed they emerge onto dry land in enormous numbers.

    The interval between spawning can be very long and usually a spawning will not recur in the same pond within the lifetime of the last generation to be spawned there. Thus each city is surrounded with ponds which spawn at different times, so that a particular pond will be given a name such as ‘sacred pond of the first generation’ referring to the first spawning of a new cycle of spawnings. Since generations emerge from different ponds at different intervals of time, there are always several age-groups of lizardmen living in the population of a city at any time. The mage priests keep detailed records of the spawning but can still be taken by surprise by sudden spawning occurring in ruined cities where the records have been lost to antiquity!”

    To represent this, a unique method of unit production should be available:

    First of all, they should have several UBs:
    • Lizardman Palace: automatically builds a Sacred Spawning Pond in every lizardman city on top of other palace benefits. Provides 5 Slann Points.
    • Sacred Spawning Ponds: +10% Ritual construction speed. Allows the construction of all the various Spawning rituals that are unlocked at the appropriate techs. -10% building production speed. Provides 2 Slann Points.
    • Skink Barrio: +5% Ritual construction speed. +1 Happy, +1 health, -10% building production speed. Provides 1 Slann Point.
    • Saurus Spawning Chambers: +5% Ritual construction speed. +1 Happy, +1 health, -10% building production speed. Provides 1 Slann Point.
    • Hatchery: +5% Ritual construction speed. +1 Happy, +1 health, -10% building production speed. Provides 1 Slann Point.

    Secondly they should have several unique Rituals which they can build in their cities which spawn X number of a particular unit type (mentioned below) at once. These should be quite expensive, but the build speed of these rituals increases with the presence of Sacred Spawning Pond, Skink Barrio, Saurus Spawning Chambers, and Hatchery.

    The Units spawned are basic warrior units which can be upgraded to different units (described below)

    It could be an interesting idea to increase the cost of the spawning rituals each time they are completed, and to have a specific one off ritual somewhere along the arcane tech line that resets the ritual costs.

    Only Directly Buildable military Units:
    • Skink Skirmisher (tech=???)-> Chamelion Skinks (tech=???)
    • Skink Axeman Warband(tech=???)
    • Skink Spearman Warband (tech=???)
    • Skink Javelin Warband (tech=???)
    • Skink Spawning: requires ‘Skink Barrio’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns Skink Civilians using the Jotnar Civilian Spawning code. No Tech Requirement. Cost???
    • Skink Shaman Spawning: requires ‘Skink Barrio’, ‘Temple of the Old Ones’, and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 Skink Shamen. Requires Tech ???. Cost???
    • Saurus Spawning: requires ‘Saurus Spawning Chambers’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 3-5 Saurus Braves. Requires Tech ???. Cost???
    • Kroxigor Spawning: requires ‘Saurus Spawning Chambers’, ‘Skink Barrio’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 Kroxigors. Requires Tech ???. Cost???
    • Beast Spawning: requires ‘Hatchery’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 hatchlings. Requires Tech ???. Cost???

    Spawned Units and Upgrade Paths:

    Skink Civilians starts with Skink racial promo. Strength 1, move 1.
    Can:
    • Upgrade to Skink worker (no tech required)
    • Upgrade to Skink Settler (no tech required)
    • Settle down as population
    • NOTE: Skink workers and Skink Settlers can also be built normally.

    Saurus Braves starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 5, move 1.
    Upgrades to:
    • Saurus Warrior (tech=???)
    • Temple Guard (tech=???)
    • Saurus Cold One Riders(if in a city with a Hatchery) (tech=???)
    • Carnosaur Rider(if in a city with a Hatchery) (tech=???)

    Kroxigor starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 7. Move 1, Amphibious, can move in coastal tiles. +25% vs melee units. +25% vs chariot units. +40% vs shock cavalry units. Can use Obsidian Weapons. can bombard adjacent tiles like longbowmen.
    Does not upgrade.
    Skink Shaman starts with Skink racial promo. Strength 3, move 1.
    Upgrades to:
    • Skink Mage-Priest (tech=???)

    Hatchling starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 3, move 1.
    Upgrades to:
    • Jungle Swarms (tech=???)
    • Skink Raptor Raiders (if in a city with a Hatchery) (tech=???)
    • Terradon Riders (if in a city with a Hatchery) (tech=???)
    • Razordon Hunting Pack (tech=???)
    • Salamander Hunting Pack (tech=???)
    • Carnosaur (tech=???)
    • Stegadon (tech=???)
  • Slann Spawn mechanic:
    Slann are different again to the rest of the lizardmen in that they spawn much more rarely than any other. It may take thoushands of years for a single slann tadpole to mature enough to leave its spawning pond, and the thousands of more years till it becomes a fully fledged Slann. In addition, after each Slann Spawning, the time till the next spawn increases. In the warhamemr world there have only ever been 5 Spawnings of Slann, and the oldest that remain is Mazdamundi, the only remaining second generation Slann.
    To represent this we should use the Adventurer point mechanic. I will call these Slann Points.

    You will have noticed that the UBs listed above have Slann Points allocated to them. The numbers are just rough, and we can make more UBs to provide more Slann Points, but the basic trend is that we should have a new great person: The Slann.

    Slann Mage-Priest: Strength 8, 1 moves, starts with channelling 1, 2 and 3. Can learn any wind of magic. Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond and Flame Affinity +1.
    In addition, the Slann should auto acquire promotions at specific age intervals, so represent the spawning generations:
    • Slann Hatchling: Auto acquired at age 15, -5% spell damage, +5% Misscast chance.
    • Young Slann: (replaces Slann Hatchling) Auto acquired at age 50, +5% spell damage, -5% Misscast chance.
    • Mature Slann: (replaces Young Slann) Auto acquired at age 125, +10% spell damage, -10% Misscast chance. Can Cast ‘Reanimate Ruins,’ turns City Ruins into a Lizardman city, does not sacrifice the caster. Takes 5 turns to cast.
    • Slann Eldar: (replaces Mature Slann) Auto acquired at age 200, +1 spell range, +20% spell damage, -20% Misscast chance. Can Cast ‘Reanimate Ruins,’ turns City Ruins into a Lizardman city, does not sacrifice the caster. Takes 5 turns to cast.
    • Ancient Slann: (replaces Slann Eldar) Auto acquired at age 400, +1 spell range, +50% spell damage, -50% Misscast chance. Can Cast ‘Reanimate Ruins,’ turns City Ruins into a Lizardman city, does not sacrifice the caster. Takes 5 turns to cast.
  • City construction mechanic:
    This mechanic is not important, it is just an interesting idea that conveys the Lizardmen being a dwindling race, with a small territory.
    Cities can be built through settlers as normal, but the Lizardmen can only have a maximum of 12 cities, and can never have more than that (should scale with map size) Cities can be reanimated by Mature Slann at no expense, and Cities should be able to build a Ritual that Reanimate Ruins (tech = ???) within their cultural Boarders.
Spoiler :

Unique Units:
Skink Braves (Replaces Warrior) starts with Skink racial promo.
Saurus Braves starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 5, move 1.
Hatchling starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 3, move 1.
Skink Skirmisher, (replaces Hunter troop) Strength 3 +1 poison. 2 moves. Skink racial promotion. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. Can see hidden animals. Can build camp and corral. -30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% Jungle and Swamp terrain strength. Hammer cost: 50.
Chamelion Skinks (replaces Ranger troop) Strength 3 +2 poison. 2 moves. Skink racial promotion. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. Can see hidden animals. Invisible, can enter rival territory without open borders, Can see invisible units. Can build camp and corral. -30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% jungle and swamp terrain strength. Hammer cost: 140.
Skink Axeman warband (Replaces Axeman warband). Strength 3/2 +1 poison, Skink racial promotion. cannot use bronze/iron weapons, can use wartats and Obsidian Weapons. +25% vs melee units, +10% city attack.
Skink Spearman warband (replaces Spearman warband). Strength 2/3 +1 poison. Skink racial promotion. cannot use bronze/iron weapons, can use wartats and Obsidian Weapons. +25% vs shock cavalry units, 10% vs chariot units.
Skink Javelin Warband (replaces Archer warband). Strength 2/4 +1 poison. Skink racial promotion. can use wartats, +25% city defence, can use wartats and Obsidian Weapons. +25% hill defense. 1 First Strike. +25% vs missile cavalry.
Saurus Warrior (replaces Militia Swordsman). Strength 6/5. Can use Obsidian weapons. +25% vs melee units, +10% vs Shock Cavalry, +10% city attack.
Kroxigor: (replaces Pikeman) Strength 7. +25% vs melee units. +25% vs chariot units. +40% vs shock cavalry units. Can use Obsidian Weapons. can bombard adjacent tiles like longbowmen.
Temple Guard (replaces Royal guard). Diciple, Strength 8/9. Can use Obsidian weapons. 'Sacred Duty' Promotion. +25% vs melee units.
Skink Raptor Raiders (replaces Ancient cavalry). Strength 4, 2 moves. Can use wartats/obsidian weapons. Can withdraw from combat 20%. +15% vs chariots, +15% vs missile units, +15% vs missile cavalry. no penalty in jungle and swamp.
Terradon Riders (replace Horsearcher warband) Strength 7, 3 moves, can use tattoos, flying, Can bombard units as standard longbowmen. 30% withdrawl chance. Requires aerie.
Saurus Cold One Riders (replaces Lancer). Strength 6/4, 2 moves. Can use Obsidian weapons. Can withdraw from combat 25%, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs chariots, +50% vs siege units. Causes Fear, Stupid. no penalty in jungle and swamp, double moves in jungle and swamp.
Carnosaur Rider (replaces knights) Strength 10/7. 2 moves. Can use Obsidian weapons. Can withdraw from combat 15%. 25% vs archers. Causes Fear, Stupid. no penalty in jungle and swamp. double moves in jungle and swamp.
Skink Shaman: strength 4, 1 moves, starts with channelling 1. can learn any wind of magic. Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond or Flame Affinity +1.
Skink Mage-Priest: strength 6, 1 moves, starts with channelling 1. can learn any wind of magic. Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond or Flame Affinity +1.
Slann Mage-Priest: Strength 8, 1 moves, starts with channelling 1 2 and 3. starts with all slann spells, can learn any wind of magic. Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond or Flame Affinity +1.
Jungle Swarms: (Replace Troll.) Strength 1+ 3 Poison, no metal weapons, immortal, 2 moves, 20% withdrawal chance, no war weariness from death, +20% Jungle and Swamp terrain strength.
Skink Razordon Hunting Pack (Replaces Giant) Strength 8/6, 2 moves +25% vs missile cavalry, +25% vs Chariot, +25% vs melee, Can bombard adjacent tiles like longbowmen, (shoots Barbs).
Skink Salamander Hunting Pack (Second Giant Slot) strength 5+4 poison unit that does collateral damage to 2 units like a Giant, and has a catapult's *wall* bombardment ability, but not their ranged attack bombardment ability.
Stegadon (replaces Dragon) Strength 16+4 Poison, 1 move. Terror, Stubborn, immune to psychology, +25% vs missile Cavalry, +25% vs archers.
Engine of the Gods (Replaces Steam Tank) (World Unit) Requires 4 of: Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond or Flame. Strength 16, 1 move, Can Cast all Slann Spells, Can Cast 'Close the Warp Gates'.

Blocked Units:
No Militia Spearman
No Militia archers
No Crossbowmen
No Longbowmen
No Handgunners
No Chariot
No Warchariot
No Cavalry
No Siege.

Unique Promotions:
Lizardman: +15% strength in Jungle, 50% vulnerability to cold
Skink: Amphibious, can travel in coastal water squares, +15% strength in Jungle and swamp. 50% vulnerability to cold
Obsidian weapons: automatically granted if the civ has access to stone resource. +15% strength, stacks with wartats.
Sacred Duty: +15% city Defence, +15% strength when 2 squares from a Unique Feature.

Unique Spells:
Close the Warp Gates a World Spell to begin Banishing Chaos Wastes (slowly turns Chaos Wastes to Normal terrain) Damages all Deamons in the world. stops winds of magic Counter from increasing.

 
I don't think the Skinks (except for Skink Mage-Priests) should require spawning. It's too much for the AI. The AI needs SOME units it can build. Also, we encounter balance issues without this.

I know you want it to be an important mechanic. But it's too much. I think having the Skink Mage-Priests, the Saurus, Kroxigor, Hatchlings, & most definitely the Slann (!) spawn reflects the spawning of the Lizardmen. But the Skinks (except for the Skink Mage-Priests) should effectively be the majority of the Lizardmen forces. They're the "cannon fodder". The Saurus are the "Shock Troops". And the Kroxigor are the "Elite Troops". And the Hatchlings are the monsters. The Slann, obviously, are the all-powerful Servants of the Old Ones. Making the Skinks buildable (as separate UUs, not as upgradable Skink Braves, which the AI will prolly not understand), while having the rest of them spawn, reflects Lizardmen spawning fine imho.
 
thats a very good point RLAF, its true that the skinks make up the majority of the population, and that would work well. im interested to hear what ahri and the others says (im pretty sure ahri will agree with you) before i change anything in my design though.
 
Maybe skinks could use the warren ub from ffh2 if they are to be buildable? Interesting design PL. Re: saurus warriors and temple guards, iirc the big difference is that temple guards (besides being fanatical lizard death dealers) have armor and are a separate breed (or are older or something) perhaps the tech can be related to metalworking. Saurus warriors tend to use non metal weapons or very little metal.
 
Easy solution! Make all the Skink units require hammers, not spawning.

I think this would fix ~65% of the problem immediately, and the rest could probably be balanced.
It would give the player (and AI) something to spend hammers on, it would restore stratregic construction decisions, it would fix the early game, and it would emphasize the weak swarmy core vs tougher rarer dinosaurs of the army.

I think we could bring this up to 75% if you still had to build not just the tier1 skinks, but also could build a few core tier2 units, like militia spearman/militia archer replacements (and their militia swordsmen ideally, but I'm guessing that you wanting your militia swordsmen replacement saurus to spawn as this is your central saurus unit).

Maybe skinks could use the warren ub from ffh2 if they are to be buildable?
I don't think warrens work here.
a) We're already using them for Skaven.
b) they have the opposite effect; if all non-skinks are free, then we already are only using hamemrs to build skinks, so we will have a ton of them. We don't need *another* mechanic to increase the number of skinks.

* * *

Marks of the Old Ones: 6 Unique features that only appear on the map if Lizardmen are in the game (we should be able to code this easily using python, editing the map generation scripts).
If a Lizardman unit is standing on a Unique Feature with an Old One Tablet, they can cast a spell ‘Claim Tablet of the ‘X’’

I massively preferred your old design; each unique feature creates a resource, and then you claim the resource in the normal manner, by having it within your cultural borders, and have the shrine national wonders that each require one of the corresponding resources.
I like this much MUCH better than some kind of ability or spell effect where you manually transport the tablet back to your civ.
And the AI understands how to go about getting resources, and prioritizes building cities in places where it can capture the resources. Giving the features tile yield bonuses will increase this further.
Plus its a harder challenge to have to control the resources and just walk there, but all the features will spawn only in jungle tiles, which form an equatorial belt on mapscripts, so it won't be that infeasible.

Another advantage of this; you could give some units (Slann?) affinity with these resources. So maybe Slann are strength 3 (they're big fat lizards), but with resource affinity for the 6 resources, so they rise to 9 if you control all 6.

Another advantage: you could have the resources revealed only by the Magic of the Old Ones tech, so non lizard/amazons would never get them.

I have no objection to events that trigger on entering the feature tiles.
The one think I would emphasize is that there must be some buildings or events available to the Amazons from the features; the amazons should be the lizard enemies, contesting them for control of the these features.

I would also give lizards (and/or amazons?) Elohim-style knowledge of the feature locations.

Monument of the Sun, etc.

Doing these as resources, you don't need to have the Tablets appear as unit promotions/equipment, so all the affinity you can get rid of. All of the features should have some tile bonuses (either inherent, or from magic of the old ones tech, which both lizards and amazons get).

I would suggest that any extra spell features be a consequence of building the Wonder, not controlling the feature. You could also consider requiring the Slann to be present in the city with the Wonder.

You've also written the spells as effecting *all* enemy units, in the entire world? This is massive, massive overkill, particularly for a spell which could be cast by each slann every 8 turns!

has a 1% chance to turn each grassland to plain and each plain to desert outside of the lizardman cultural borders (this last effect might be too much).
Hmmm.... yes, too much. You shouldn't be terraforming outside your own borders, and honestly I would prefer this mod to have less terrain terraforming than in FFH. The middle of the Empire suddnely turns to desert because some lizards on the otherside of the world start casting searing light? Thats not fun. And why are lizards *destroying* the world (turning it to desert)?

I'd also suggest you consider converting these super-spells to rituals (buildable in the cities - another thing to spend hammers on) rather than spells on the Slann.
Possibly Slann could create an Inspiriation-type building in cities (lasts as long as they are present) that boosts the production of Rituals.

The Ritual method of spawning sounds interesting, better than the planar-gate style. I will think about it some more.

My biggest worry is that the AI wouldn't understand that building those rituals gave it units.

A hybrid method where skin units were buildable normally and the lizards were spawned might be interesting.

I haven't played Grigori in a long-ass time, so I don't know if they fixed this, but in the earlier versions of FFH the advenrurer mechanic didn't really work very well, because adventurers would be crowded out by other GPP types, either from specialists or wonders.
Is this likely to happen here? Or can they track adventurers/slann separately from normal GPPs?
 
I think this would fix ~65% of the problem immediately, and the rest could probably be balanced.
It would give the player (and AI) something to spend hammers on, it would restore stratregic construction decisions, it would fix the early game, and it would emphasize the weak swarmy core vs tougher rarer dinosaurs of the army.

I think we could bring this up to 75% if you still had to build not just the tier1 skinks, but also could build a few core tier2 units, like militia spearman/militia archer replacements (and their militia swordsmen ideally, but I'm guessing that you wanting your militia swordsmen replacement saurus to spawn as this is your central saurus unit).

ok then, its agreed :) well do it this way.

I massively preferred your old design; each unique feature creates a resource, and then you claim the resource in the normal manner, by having it within your cultural borders, and have the shrine national wonders that each require one of the corresponding resources.
I like this much MUCH better than some kind of ability or spell effect where you manually transport the tablet back to your civ.

really? good cause i had the impression you didnt like that idea so tried to come up with an alternative.

Another advantage of this; you could give some units (Slann?) affinity with these resources. So maybe Slann are strength 3 (they're big fat lizards), but with resource affinity for the 6 resources, so they rise to 9 if you control all 6.

i agree, but they should start the same strength as regular archmages, maybe a little weaker. 3 strength is rubbish. just because theyre fat frogs dosnt mean they cant defend themselves ;) theyre the most powerful wizards in the world. need i say more?

Another advantage: you could have the resources revealed only by the Magic of the Old Ones tech, so non lizard/amazons would never get them.

good idea.
The one think I would emphasize is that there must be some buildings or events available to the Amazons from the features; the amazons should be the lizard enemies, contesting them for control of the these features.

i agree with this in principle too, but dont have any ideas how and why. so ideas are welcome!

I would also give lizards (and/or amazons?) Elohim-style knowledge of the feature locations.

i did mention this quite early on. and no i dont think amazon should get this benefit too. they dont have uber-psychic frogs leading them.

Doing these as resources, you don't need to have the Tablets appear as unit promotions/equipment, so all the affinity you can get rid of.
you lost me.

All of the features should have some tile bonuses (either inherent, or from magic of the old ones tech, which both lizards and amazons get).
added :)
I would suggest that any extra spell features be a consequence of building the Wonder, not controlling the feature.

thats doable... possibly have the wonders auto apply a promotion that grants access to the spell when the slann enter the city.

You've also written the spells as effecting *all* enemy units, in the entire world? This is massive, massive overkill, particularly for a spell which could be cast by each slann every 8 turns!

the intention is that these spells be world disaster spells, that means because it is a world spell only one unit can cast it at a time, so if one slann cast solar flare, all other slann would have to wait 8 turns to be able to cast it again.

we could possibly make these global disaster spells (solar flare, eclipse) require another ritual to be built to be able to recast them instead of a cooldown period? the other ones, (earthquake, tsunami, meteor and eruption are less OPed i think, and could just have a longer cooldown time?

Hmmm.... yes, too much. You shouldn't be terraforming outside your own borders, and honestly I would prefer this mod to have less terrain terraforming than in FFH. The middle of the Empire suddnely turns to desert because some lizards on the otherside of the world start casting searing light? Thats not fun.
ok then. good point.

And why are lizards *destroying* the world (turning it to desert)?

theyre not destroying it, theyre folling the old ones plans. all natural disasteres are caused by the Slann.

there was a massive Tsunami that sunk the entire Cathayan fleet that was trying to invade naggaroth, the huge earthquake that effectoivly destroyed the dwarf empire was caused by the slann. etc etc. it was all planned by the old ones.
I'd also suggest you consider converting these super-spells to rituals (buildable in the cities - another thing to spend hammers on) rather than spells on the Slann.
Possibly Slann could create an Inspiriation-type building in cities (lasts as long as they are present) that boosts the production of Rituals.

this could be workable, i quite like it.

My biggest worry is that the AI wouldn't understand that building those rituals gave it units.

im pretty sure we can code the AI to build them. but not so sure about getting them to build them inteligently.

I haven't played Grigori in a long-ass time, so I don't know if they fixed this, but in the earlier versions of FFH the advenrurer mechanic didn't really work very well, because adventurers would be crowded out by other GPP types, either from specialists or wonders.
Is this likely to happen here? Or can they track adventurers/slann separately from normal GPPs?

this is true. we could make it so that lizardmen can upgrade any great person into a slann regardless of if it is adventure or not?
 
I don't know how much this makeover will change the game. But one thing that I have experienced is, that the wood elves seem overpowered. They always end up being at the top of the game.

I have followed your discussion about Nagash, and he is a remnant from the "undead" book before it was split up in VC and Khemri. There he was a hero that you could buy. Actually a very ugly miniature :p

But a hero for the VC would be unnatural :crazyeye: zacharias the everliving could be a choice
 
really? good cause i had the impression you didnt like that idea so tried to come up with an alternative.

My concerns were about a mechanic that was based on 6 features, which might or might not be present. But those can be overcome, they are not critical problems. I prefer the resource method, it is much cleaner.

i agree, but they should start the same strength as regular archmages, maybe a little weaker
The problem with making them strength 5 or 6 is that with 6 features that would boost strength to 11 or 2, making these guys combat monsters.
Does FF let you do fractional resource affinity? Maybe we could have them strength 5 with 0.5 affinity per resource.


i agree with this in principle too, but dont have any ideas how and why. so ideas are welcome!
I'll think about it; do you have any links to Amazonian fluff?

you lost me.
Yeah, that was a confusing sentence.
You listed the various wonders as having "fire" affinity or "holy" affinity or "unholy" affinity.
If we're just using them as resources, there is no need for any affinity, there won't be any physical tablet to pick up and move.


we could possibly make these global disaster spells (solar flare, eclipse) require another ritual to be built to be able to recast them instead of a cooldown period?
I think the most important change is just to give them a large but finite range, not have them effect the whole world. If nothing else, a solar flare or eclipse isn't going to effect the entire planet!
I never played Gods of Old so I don't actually know what the disasters do, so I can't provide any balance feedback.

theyre not destroying it, theyre folling the old ones plans. all natural disasteres are caused by the Slann.
I am still very very opposed to terraforming outside your own territory, and I prefer mild terraforming within territory at most. like I said, having your empire turned from grasslands into desert thanks to spells being cast on the other side of the world woudl be incredibly frustrating, and Not Fun in the extreme.
im pretty sure we can code the AI to build them. but not so sure about getting them to build them inteligently.
Yes. Illians showed that you can get the AI to build rituals, but intelligently building them is more difficult. I don't know enough about AI coding; this is probably worth posting on the FFH forums, or asking Xienwolf or Vehem about.
Another possibility; you might want to give Lizard leaders ingenuity, to halve their upgrade costs, if they're spawning braves that then upgrade into other units?

we could make it so that lizardmen can upgrade any great person into a slann regardless of if it is adventure or not?
Maybe... but that might lead to too many slann. You can get a lot of great people, particularly running a specialist economy with the high food-yield jungle/swamps.
You could have the adventurers, and have great priests only upgrade into Slann.
Other possibilities are:
i) Have Slann (and *only* Slann) spawn a la Planar gate from a particular structure. Or maybe they spawn from the Tablet Wonders?
ii) have basic mage-priests able to upgrade into slann when they are at least level 6; so slann are basically the archmage slot like other mages.
iii) Have some knid of mechanic like Sidar Shades, where experienced units can turn into slann (imagine it as a sacrifice to summon/wake the slann).
iv) Have Slann just be expensive units buildable with hammers, with a small national limit.
 
The problem with making them strength 5 or 6 is that with 6 features that would boost strength to 11 or 2, making these guys combat monsters.
Does FF let you do fractional resource affinity? Maybe we could have them strength 5 with 0.5 affinity per resource.

Ok, how about strength 3/6 + affinities?

do you have any links to Amazonian fluff?

hmm lets see...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4701483&postcount=58
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4703111&postcount=60
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4707504&postcount=62
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6031847&postcount=79

You listed the various wonders as having "fire" affinity or "holy" affinity or "unholy" affinity.
If we're just using them as resources, there is no need for any affinity, there won't be any physical tablet to pick up and move.

ah ok. actually there IS a need to list what damage type the resources give: its for the slann tablet affinity. basically they get +1 poison strength with the Tablet of the Earth, +1 Holy strength with the tablet of the sun etc. they act the same as mana in that regard.

I think the most important change is just to give them a large but finite range, not have them effect the whole world. If nothing else, a solar flare or eclipse isn't going to effect the entire planet!
I never played Gods of Old so I don't actually know what the disasters do, so I can't provide any balance feedback.

id rather the solar flare and eclipse to be global, they just apply temporarly promotions to units, and solar flare does minor holy damage. the other 4 are small scale.

Earthquake alows you to target a square anywhere in the world you can see (ie through fog of war) for an area 5 x 5 squares. it has a chance of destroying buildings in cities, reducing city pop, destroying improvements and damaging units on those squares. it is very well balanced, not too powerful but still very ipressive (especilaly with the graphics!)

Meteor lets you target any stack in the world yo ucan see, it does mad collateral damage and can kill weak units. only for that stack.

Tsunami is similar to FfH Tsunami, but better graphics and a larger area, with a chance to destroy coastal improvements, and buildigns in cities.

I am still very very opposed to terraforming outside your own territory, and I prefer mild terraforming within territory at most. like I said, having your empire turned from grasslands into desert thanks to spells being cast on the other side of the world woudl be incredibly frustrating, and Not Fun in the extreme.

lol i forgot to actually say i agreed with you. i removed that effect from the spell.

Another possibility; you might want to give Lizard leaders ingenuity, to halve their upgrade costs, if they're spawning braves that then upgrade into other units?

very good point. ill add this to the design doc.

Other possibilities are:
i) Have Slann (and *only* Slann) spawn a la Planar gate from a particular structure. Or maybe they spawn from the Tablet Wonders?
How about using the 'Mothers Nest' spider spawning mechanic thatthe Archos use? the number of spiders that spawn is reletive to the number of spides in existance, and it is adjusted with buildigns. i think this would be the best way to go.

ii) have basic mage-priests able to upgrade into slann when they are at least level 6; so slann are basically the archmage slot like other mages.
how does a skink turn into an oversised toad?

iii) Have some knid of mechanic like Sidar Shades, where experienced units can turn into slann (imagine it as a sacrifice to summon/wake the slann).
wierd flavour wise.

iv) Have Slann just be expensive units buildable with hammers, with a small national limit.
definately not.
 
6 Unique features that only appear on the map if Lizardmen are in the game (we should be able to code this easily using python, editing the map generation scripts)

I would make them normal features that can always sometimes appear (even if they do nothing, they look cool in jungles, and they will help amazons); and then make sure all of them appear if lizards are in the game.
And make it clear that these spawn only on jungle tiles.

The one potential problem; what if someone runs a mapscript that has no jungle, with lizards present?

(these tablets can also be found by exploring dungeon like ‘Old One Ruins’)
I don't understand how this would work; they are resources, not promotions or equipment.

they will also grant affinity to Slann and Skink Shamans, so the lizards will really, really want to get access to all the monuments.

Granting resource affinity to the basic skink shamans could be too powerful. Do they need it, lorewise? They're casters, not combat units. Its possible I suppose if we have fractional affinity (they could get +0.25 per resource), but doesn't seem important.

Solar Flare: All enemy units gain the ‘Temporarily blinded’ promotion, and deals minor holy damage to all enemy units.
Again I would really suggest a "within range X" (x = 8?), and that these spells should be on a global cooldown timer.
Having them take 2 turns to cast would also help.
Eclipse: All Friendly units gain the ‘Eclipsed’ promotion which allows them to enter rival territory and is invisible in forest and jungle, they are also 25% resistant to all damage types and magic. Removed at end of turn.
Entering rival territory with a promotion that only lasts 1 turn is a baaad idea. Your units enter, the promotion wears off, and then they are stranded.
I don't think that only crossing the border requires open borders; moving anywhere in your enemies territory requires open borders.

tile yields 2 Hammers. +33% defence to all units within 3 squares.
Can you cut it to 20%, and can you make it only give the bonus to factions not at war with the player whose cultural borders the resource is in? This shouldn't be making it harder to attack incoming invaders.

I don't know what the gods of old spells do, so I can't balance them. We can playtest.

Units within 3 squares have the 'Hasted' promotion.
THis seems like it would be irritating and confusing for the player (why are my units getting haste? why are they losing it?).
You could just have it give a larger tile yield.
Explorable Master Lair.
These could be ok in the long term, but it will require a lot of extra work to have the explorable dungeons modified to warhammer flavor and our promotion list.

* Skink Spawning: requires ‘Skink Barrio’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns Skink Civilians using the Jotnar Civilian Spawning code. No Tech Requirement. Cost???



Skink Civilians starts with Skink racial promo. Strength 1, move 1.
Can:
* Upgrade to Skink worker (no tech required)
* Upgrade to Skink Settler (no tech required)
* Settle down as population
* NOTE: Skink workers and Skink Settlers can also be built normally.

I don't really like this. The swamp mechanic and the high food yield of jungles (which are in grassland tiles) already mean that lizard civs will have very high population growth. I see no need for an extra mechanic to help them grow faster, by turning hammers into population.
Just make it spawn skink braves, or remove it.

Kroxigor Spawning: requires ‘Saurus Spawning Chambers’, ‘Skink Barrio’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 Kroxigors. Requires Tech ???. Cost???

There is a problem with Kroxigor (pikemen) spawning.
The other rituals create basic units, which you then have to upgrade to whatever national limit units you want, and so the national limits must be respected.

A ritual that directly create nationally limited units can potentially get around that.
I'd either tie the Kroxigor in to be a unit upgraded from saurus braves, or work in some other way to make sure that the Ritual doesn't let you go over the limit.

Age-adjusted promotions seem mostly harmless.

+1 spell range,
If this is just mobility on summons, its fine. If its actually increasing the range of spells, that could be a balance problem - particularly it could mess up range 0 spells.

However, the great people mechanic has a HUGE potential balance problem; it can allow you to have archmages in the early game. This is broken.
Potentially this mechanic could allow you to be throwing around the powerful level 2 spells and super-powerful level 3 spells very early on in the game.
Every other race has access to these only with expensive techs and/or wonders.
Grigori adventurers got around this because they had to *upgrade* into mages and archages, and so were still tech-restricted in the same way as other factions.

Potential out: tie channeling 2 and 3 into the age-mechanic somehow.
Though that will mean the AI can't use them.

Other out:
Have a basic skink mage, and then have 3 levels of slann mage, just like other factions, that upgrade from one into the next with level requirements and tech requirements.

Slann super-magic is represented with the big uber-disasters; they shouldn't also be getting super-early access to other spells too.
 
Ok, how about strength 3/6 + affinities?

You're still turning them into stack defenders.

As for strength; see the problems in the post above. You might need to make multiple initiate/mage/archmage versions of Slann.

it is very well balanced, not too powerful but still very ipressive (especilaly with the graphics!)
Well-balanced is one thing on a unit that can only cast it once; its another when it can be cast repeatedly.
I'm happy to use it and playtest though.
How about using the 'Mothers Nest' spider spawning mechanic thatthe Archos use? the number of spiders that spawn is reletive to the number of spides in existance, and it is adjusted with buildigns. i think this would be the best way to go.

This seems reasonable. However, see post 174 for early archmage concerns.
 
Amazon suggestions:
a) Shift the Old ones feature tile bonuses to the Magic of the Old Ones civ, and maybe increase them all by 1, so that only Amazons and Old ones get them.
b) Allow some amazon spellcasters to get 0.5 affinities from the Old One tablet resources
c) Couatl (a feathered, winged, spell-casting serpent) sounds much cooler and more flavorful than a basilisk. The Coatl could also get the old one table affinities. Maybe:
Couatl
Strength 10, +0.5 affinities with the 6 old ones resources.
National limit 3.
Beast unit.
Starts with jade magic 1, 2, 3. No channeling.
3 moves, flying.
 
The one potential problem; what if someone runs a mapscript that has no jungle, with lizards present?

if you force the features to appear when lizards are present they will appear regardless of if there is no jungle.

I don't understand how this would work; they are resources, not promotions or equipment.

its simple. FfH does it by alowing you to discover sources of mana in ruins. its easy.

Granting resource affinity to the basic skink shamans could be too powerful. Do they need it, lorewise? They're casters, not combat units. Its possible I suppose if we have fractional affinity (they could get +0.25 per resource), but doesn't seem important.

we can scrap that if you think its too much.

Again I would really suggest a "within range X" (x = 8?), and that these spells should be on a global cooldown timer.
Having them take 2 turns to cast would also help.

so youre saying to go away from the ritual spell idea and back to normal spells with a range limit?

Entering rival territory with a promotion that only lasts 1 turn is a baaad idea. Your units enter, the promotion wears off, and then they are stranded.

true... ill just make it give invisibility then. maybe also hidden nationality as well?
Can you cut it to 20%, and can you make it only give the bonus to factions not at war with the player whose cultural borders the resource is in? This shouldn't be making it harder to attack incoming invaders.

ok, all doable.

Just make it spawn skink braves, or remove it.

removed.

A ritual that directly create nationally limited units can potentially get around that.
I'd either tie the Kroxigor in to be a unit upgraded from saurus braves, or work in some other way to make sure that the Ritual doesn't let you go over the limit.

i didnt consider that. i should expect there is a way to make sure they dont exceed the national limit.

Other out:
Have a basic skink mage, and then have 3 levels of slann mage, just like other factions, that upgrade from one into the next with level requirements and tech requirements.

this was my OLD design intention which i toally forgot about. how about we use the promotion- auto acquire mechanics to automatically give the slann the appropriate channeling promotions with the right techs. akin to magic based heroes like Morathi?
c) Couatl (a feathered, winged, spell-casting serpent) sounds much cooler and more flavorful than a basilisk. The Coatl could also get the old one table affinities. Maybe:
Couatl
Strength 10, +0.5 affinities with the 6 old ones resources.
National limit 3.
Beast unit.
Starts with jade magic 1, 2, 3. No channeling.
3 moves, flying.
i love it!
 
Updated Lizardman Mechanics:

check out the slann, kroxigors and tablets sections.
Spoiler :

  • Unique Feature Synergy:

    The Lizardmen see themselves as the guardians of the Warhammer World and as the defenders of the sacred places left by the Old Ones. They have a close link with Unique Features, ESPECIALLY those directly related to the Old Ones:
    Lizardmen start being able to see all unique features on the map like the Elohim in FfH

    Marks of the Old Ones: 6 Unique features that always appear on the map if Lizardmen are in the game (we should be able to code this easily using python, editing the map generation scripts). They provide mana-like 'Old One tablets' which will enable special wonders to be built if they are linked up by a road. these wonders give the Slann Mage-Priests an additional spell depending on what tablets they get, they will also grant affinity to Slann, so the lizards will really, really want to get access to all the monuments.
    Additional mechanics could be:

    some unique events can pop up when a lizardman unit steps on the unique feature ie one could spawn a Settler and 2 skink Braves, or a Temple Guard if the appropriate tech has been researched.

    The 'Old One Tablets' are only revealed by the 'Magic of the Old Ones tech' to both Lizardmen and Amazonians.

    Spoiler Marks of the Old Ones :

    • Monument of the Sun
      • tile yields 2 gold +1 happiness in nearby cities. +3 line of sight.
      • provides ‘Tablet of the Sun’ resource (affinity = Holy strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the Sun' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the Sun' Wonder. Requires ‘Tablet of the Sun’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Gives all Slann Units the 'Solar Flare' Spell (should be doable directly through python) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Affects Slann Spawn Chance. Solar Flare: All enemy units within 10 squares (subject to change with testing) gain the ‘Temporarily blinded’ promotion, and deals minor holy damage to all enemy units. takes 3 turns to cast, 10 turn cool global down period.
    • Monument of the Moon
      • tile yields 1 gold 1 hammer. allows units to air lift up to 3 squares away.
      • provides ‘Tablet of the Moon’ resource (affinity = Unholy strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the Moon' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the Moon' Wonder. Requires ‘Tablet of the Moon’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Gives all Slann Units the 'Eclipse' Spell (should be doable directly through python) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.Eclipse: All Friendly units within 10 squares (subject to change with testing) gain the ‘Eclipsed’ promotion which makes them invisible in forest and jungle and have hidden nationality, they are also 25% resistant to all damage types and magic. removed after combat or 25% chance each turn whatever comes first. takes 3 turns to cast, 10 turn cool global down period.
    • Obsidian Column
      • tile yields 2 Hammers. +33% defence to all units within 3 squares.
      • provides ‘Tablet of the Earth’ resource (affinity = poison strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the Earth' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the Earth' Wonder. Requires ‘Tablet of the Earth’ resource.+10% Ritual construction speed. Gives all Slann Units the 'Earthquake' Spell (should be doable directly through python) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.Earthquake Identical to the spell in Gods of Old. 3 turn casting time, 10 turn cool global down period.
    • Temple of Constelations
      • tile yields 2 gold. Units within 3 squares have the 'Hasted' promotion. (OR Explorable Master Lair if that wont work)
      • provides ‘Tablet of the Stars’ resource (affinity = Lightning strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the Stars' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the Stars' Wonder. Requires ‘Tablet of the Stars’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Gives all Slann Units the 'Meteor' Spell (should be doable directly through python) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.Meteor: Identical to the spell in Gods of Old. 3 turn casting time, 10 turn cool global down period.
    • Mirror Pools of Tepok
      • tile yields 2 Food. Cures disease, plague etc. +100% heal rate.
      • provides ‘Tablet of the World Pond’ resource (affinity = Cold strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of the World Pond' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of the World Pond' Wonder. requires ‘Tablet of the World Pond’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Gives all Slann Units the 'Tsunami' Spell (should be doable directly through python) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.Tsunami: Identical to the spell in Gods of Old. 3 turn casting time, 10 turn cool global down period.
    • Smoking Caverns
      • tile yields 2 Hammers. Explorable Master Lair.
      • provides ‘Tablet of Flame’ resource (affinity = Fire strength), Allows the construction of the 'Altar of Flame' Wonder.
      • 'Altar of Flame' Wonder. requires ‘Tablet of Flame’ resource. +10% Ritual construction speed. Gives all Slann Units the 'Eruption' Spell (should be doable directly through python)) +GPP, +beakers, +gold. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.Eruption: Turns all peaks adjacent to the caster into a volcano and causes them to erupt destroying all improvements around its base, and damaging cities enemy units like earthquake. castable only in neutral and enemy territory. 3 turn casting time, 10 turn cool global down period.

  • Unit Spawn mechanic:
    “Every Lizardman city has its sacred ponds and expanses of marsh where the spawning occur. Skinks and kroxigor tend to spawn in ponds and swamps open to the sky, whereas Saurus are usually spawned in dank subterranean caverns. Pyramid temples are frequently built over the top of the entrances to such caverns and outlying swamps are sometimes made into rectangular sacred ponds. Some days after the spawn have been laid it hatches into tadpoles which grow larger and more powerful by the day, feeding on the enormous number of tropical insects that hover above the waters. When the lizardmen are fully developed they emerge onto dry land in enormous numbers.

    The interval between spawning can be very long and usually a spawning will not recur in the same pond within the lifetime of the last generation to be spawned there. Thus each city is surrounded with ponds which spawn at different times, so that a particular pond will be given a name such as ‘sacred pond of the first generation’ referring to the first spawning of a new cycle of spawnings. Since generations emerge from different ponds at different intervals of time, there are always several age-groups of lizardmen living in the population of a city at any time. The mage priests keep detailed records of the spawning but can still be taken by surprise by sudden spawning occurring in ruined cities where the records have been lost to antiquity!”

    To represent this, a unique method of unit production should be available:

    First of all, they should have several UBs:
    • Lizardman Palace: automatically builds a Sacred Spawning Pond in every lizardman city on top of other palace benefits. Slann spawn only from Lizardman palace. Base chance per turn of spawn = x% (tweaked from Archos Spider Spawn chance). Chance of spawning a new Slann drops by y% (tweaked from Archos Spider Spawn chance) for each Slann you already have, down to 0% if you control 5 Slann.
    • Sacred Spawning Ponds: requires ancient lore tech. +10% Ritual construction speed. Allows the construction of all the various Spawning rituals that are unlocked at the appropriate techs. -10% building production speed. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.
    • Skink Barrio: (Replaces barracks) Requires warfare tech. +2 xp for newly created melee, ranged units. -10% building construction speed, +5% Ritual construction speed. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.
    • Saurus Spawning Chambers: Requires tactics tech. +5% Ritual construction speed. +1 Happy, +1 health, -10% building production speed. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.
    • Hatchery: Requires monster taming tech. +5% Ritual construction speed. +1 Happy, +1 health, -10% building production speed. Affects Slann Spawn Chance.

    Secondly they should have several unique Rituals which they can build in their cities which spawn X number of a particular unit type (mentioned below) at once. These should be quite expensive, but the build speed of these rituals increases with the presence of Sacred Spawning Pond, Skink Barrio, Saurus Spawning Chambers, and Hatchery.

    The Units spawned are basic warrior units which can be upgraded to different units (described below)

    It could be an interesting idea to increase the cost of the spawning rituals each time they are completed, and to have a specific one off ritual somewhere along the arcane tech line that resets the ritual costs.
    • Skink Shaman Spawning: requires ‘Skink Barrio’, ‘Temple of the Old Ones’, and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 Skink Shamen up to a national cap of 10. Requires magic of the old ones tech, and winds of magic tech. Cost???
    • Saurus Spawning: requires ‘Saurus Spawning Chambers’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 3-5 Saurus Braves. Requires tactics Tech. Cost (4x (axeman cost + (pikemen cost -axeman cost)/2)
    • Kroxigor Spawning: requires ‘Saurus Spawning Chambers’, ‘Skink Barrio’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 Kroxigors. Requires military tradition Tech. Cost (2x pikemen cost)
    • Beast Spawning: requires ‘Hatchery’ and ‘Sacred Spawning Ponds’, Spawns 1-3 hatchlings. Requires monster taming tech. Cost???

    Only Directly Buildable military Units:
    • Skink Skirmisher (tech=???)-> Chamelion Skinks (tech=???)
    • Skink Axeman Warband(tech=???)
    • Skink Spearman Warband (tech=???)
    • Skink Javelin Warband (tech=???)

    Spawned Units and Upgrade Paths:

    Saurus Braves starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 5, move 1.
    Upgrades to:
    • Saurus Warrior (tech=???)
    • Temple Guard (tech=???)
    • Saurus Cold One Riders(if in a city with a Hatchery) (tech=???)
    • Carnosaur Rider(if in a city with a Hatchery) (tech=???)

    Kroxigor starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 6. Move 1.
    Upgrades to:
    • Kroxigor Guard (tech=???)
    • Kroxigor Bersearker (tech=???)

    Skink Shaman starts with Skink racial promo. Strength 3, move 1.
    Upgrades to:
    • Skink Mage-Priest (tech=???)

    Hatchling starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 3, move 1.
    Upgrades to:
    • Jungle Swarms (tech=???)
    • Skink Raptor Raiders (if in a city with a Hatchery) (tech=???)
    • Terradon Riders (if in a city with a Hatchery) (tech=???)
    • Razordon Hunting Pack (tech=???)
    • Salamander Hunting Pack (tech=???)
    • Carnosaur (tech=???)
    • Stegadon (tech=???)
  • Slann Spawn mechanic:
    Slann are different again to the rest of the lizardmen in that they spawn much more rarely than any other. It may take thoushands of years for a single slann tadpole to mature enough to leave its spawning pond, and the thousands of more years till it becomes a fully fledged Slann. In addition, after each Slann Spawning, the time till the next spawn increases. In the warhamemr world there have only ever been 5 Spawnings of Slann, and the oldest that remain is Mazdamundi, the only remaining second generation Slann.

    To represent this we should use the Archos Spider Spawning mechanic. the number of Slann that spawn is relative to the number of Slann in existance, and it is adjusted with buildigns such as the spawning pools etc.

    Slann Mage-Priest: Strength 3, 1 moves, starts with channelling 1. Can learn any wind of magic. Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond and Flame Affinity +1(or +0.5 if possible).
    Automatically acquires the Mage promotions from the Education tech,
    Automatically acquires the Archmage promotions from the Arcane lore tech.

    In addition, the Slann should auto acquire promotions at specific age intervals, so represent the spawning generations:
    • Slann Hatchling: Auto acquired at age 15, -5% spell damage, +5% Misscast chance.
    • Young Slann: (replaces Slann Hatchling) Auto acquired at age 50, +5% spell damage, -5% Misscast chance.
    • Mature Slann: (replaces Young Slann) Auto acquired at age 125, +10% spell damage, -10% Misscast chance. increases caster EXP gain. Can Cast ‘Reanimate Ruins,’ turns City Ruins into a Lizardman city, does not sacrifice the caster. Takes 5 turns to cast.
    • Slann Eldar: (replaces Mature Slann) Auto acquired at age 200, +1 spell range, +20% spell damage, -20% Misscast chance. increases caster EXP gain. Can Cast ‘Reanimate Ruins,’ turns City Ruins into a Lizardman city, does not sacrifice the caster. Takes 5 turns to cast.
    • Ancient Slann: (replaces Slann Eldar) Auto acquired at age 400, +1 spell range, +50% spell damage, -50% Misscast chance. increases caster EXP gain. Can Cast ‘Reanimate Ruins,’ turns City Ruins into a Lizardman city, does not sacrifice the caster. Takes 5 turns to cast.
  • City construction mechanic:
    This mechanic is not important, it is just an interesting idea that conveys the Lizardmen being a dwindling race, with a small territory.
    Cities can be built through settlers as normal, but the Lizardmen can only have a maximum of 12 cities, and can never have more than that (should scale with map size) Cities can be reanimated by Mature Slann at no expense, and Cities should be able to build a Ritual that Reanimate Ruins (tech = ???) within their cultural Boarders.
Spoiler :

Unique Units:
Skink Braves (Replaces Warrior) starts with Skink racial promo.
Saurus Braves starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 5, move 1.
Hatchling starts with Lizardman racial promo. Strength 3, move 1.
Skink Skirmisher, (replaces Hunter troop) Strength 3 +1 poison. 2 moves. Skink racial promotion. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. Can see hidden animals. Can build camp and corral. -30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% Jungle and Swamp terrain strength. Hammer cost: 50.
Chamelion Skinks (replaces Ranger troop) Strength 3 +2 poison. 2 moves. Skink racial promotion. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. Can see hidden animals. Invisible, can enter rival territory without open borders, Can see invisible units. Can build camp and corral. -30% city strength. Better results from tribal villages. Can move through impassable terrain. +50% vs animals. +50% vs beasts. +20% jungle and swamp terrain strength. Hammer cost: 140.
Skink Axeman warband (Replaces Axeman warband). Strength 3/2 +1 poison, Skink racial promotion. cannot use bronze/iron weapons, can use wartats and Obsidian Weapons. +25% vs melee units, +10% city attack.
Skink Spearman warband (replaces Spearman warband). Strength 2/3 +1 poison. Skink racial promotion. cannot use bronze/iron weapons, can use wartats and Obsidian Weapons. +25% vs shock cavalry units, 10% vs chariot units.
Skink Javelin Warband (replaces Archer warband). Strength 2/4 +1 poison. Skink racial promotion. can use wartats, +25% city defence, can use wartats and Obsidian Weapons. +25% hill defense. 1 First Strike. +25% vs missile cavalry.
Saurus Warrior (replaces Militia Swordsman). Strength 6/5. Can use Obsidian weapons. +25% vs melee units, +10% vs Shock Cavalry, +10% city attack.
Kroxigor Guard: (replaces Pikeman) Strength 7. +25% vs melee units. +25% vs chariot units. +40% vs shock cavalry units. Can use Obsidian Weapons. can bombard adjacent tiles like longbowmen.
Kroxigor Bersearker: (UU requires Tech???) Strength 9/5. 2 moves, blitz +25% vs melee units. Can use Obsidian Weapons.
Temple Guard (replaces Royal guard). Diciple, Strength 8/9. Can use Obsidian weapons. 'Sacred Duty' Promotion. +25% vs melee units.
Skink Raptor Raiders (replaces Ancient cavalry). Strength 4, 2 moves. Can use wartats/obsidian weapons. Can withdraw from combat 20%. +15% vs chariots, +15% vs missile units, +15% vs missile cavalry. no penalty in jungle and swamp.
Terradon Riders (replace Horsearcher warband) Strength 7, 3 moves, can use tattoos, flying, Can bombard units as standard longbowmen. 30% withdrawl chance. Requires aerie.
Saurus Cold One Riders (replaces Lancer). Strength 6/4, 2 moves. Can use Obsidian weapons. Can withdraw from combat 25%, +25% vs missile units, +25% vs chariots, +50% vs siege units. Causes Fear, Stupid. no penalty in jungle and swamp, double moves in jungle and swamp.
Carnosaur Rider (replaces knights) Strength 10/7. 2 moves. Can use Obsidian weapons. Can withdraw from combat 15%. 25% vs archers. Causes Fear, Stupid. no penalty in jungle and swamp. double moves in jungle and swamp.
Skink Shaman: strength 4, 1 moves, starts with channelling 1. can learn any wind of magic. Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond or Flame Affinity +1.
Skink Mage-Priest: strength 6, 1 moves, starts with channelling 1. can learn any wind of magic. Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond or Flame Affinity +1.
Slann Mage-Priest: Strength 8, 1 moves, starts with channelling 1 2 and 3. starts with all slann spells, can learn any wind of magic. Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond or Flame Affinity +1.
Jungle Swarms: (Replace Troll.) Strength 1+ 3 Poison, no metal weapons, immortal, 2 moves, 20% withdrawal chance, no war weariness from death, +20% Jungle and Swamp terrain strength.
Skink Razordon Hunting Pack (Replaces Giant) Strength 8/6, 2 moves +25% vs missile cavalry, +25% vs Chariot, +25% vs melee, Can bombard adjacent tiles like longbowmen, (shoots Barbs).
Skink Salamander Hunting Pack (Second Giant Slot) strength 5+4 poison unit that does collateral damage to 2 units like a Giant, and has a catapult's *wall* bombardment ability, but not their ranged attack bombardment ability.
Stegadon (replaces Dragon) Strength 16+4 Poison, 1 move. Terror, Stubborn, immune to psychology, +25% vs missile Cavalry, +25% vs archers.
Engine of the Gods (Replaces Steam Tank) (World Unit) Requires 4 of: Tablet of the Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars, World Pond or Flame. Strength 16, 1 move, Can Cast all Slann Spells, Can Cast 'Close the Warp Gates'.

Blocked Units:
No Militia Spearman
No Militia archers
No Crossbowmen
No Longbowmen
No Handgunners
No Chariot
No Warchariot
No Cavalry
No Siege.

Unique Promotions:
Lizardman: +15% strength in Jungle, 50% vulnerability to cold
Skink: Amphibious, can travel in coastal water squares, +15% strength in Jungle and swamp. 50% vulnerability to cold
Obsidian weapons: automatically granted if the civ has access to stone resource. +15% strength, stacks with wartats.
Sacred Duty: +15% city Defence, +15% strength when 2 squares from a Unique Feature.

Unique Spells:
Close the Warp Gates a World Spell to begin Banishing Chaos Wastes (slowly turns Chaos Wastes to Normal terrain) Damages all Deamons in the world. stops winds of magic Counter from increasing.

 
its simple. FfH does it by alowing you to discover sources of mana in ruins. its easy.

This could be a balance problem.
The main 6 features will have the resource.
You are suggesting that we also allow the resource to be discovered from other ruins/dungeons/features as well. This could lead to multiple copies of each resource around, which could be a problem with the affinity units getting too strong.

I would limit the resources to appear only in the 6 features.

so youre saying to go away from the ritual spell idea and back to normal spells with a range limit?

Oh, I could go either way, but I thought that you wanted to making these into spells on the Slann units.
I'd be fine with the Rituals as either hammer-buildable Rituals that required the appropriate resource, or spells castable by Slann directly on a big global cooldown, with a 2-turn casting time.
I can see either one working.

true... ill just make it give invisibility then. maybe also hidden nationality as well?
I don't really like turning your whole army instantly hidden nationality, it allows for huge backstab possibilities, or having your allies suddenly attack you.
Invisibility for a single turn isn't great either; maybe it should be a ~50% promotion wearoff chance, rather than 100%?

how about we use the promotion- auto acquire mechanics to automatically give the slann the appropriate channeling promotions with the right techs. akin to magic based heroes like Morathi?
Even better; why don't we just give them mage and archmage promotions, acquired in the same way as heroes?
And make a Slann racial promotion that works into the magic promotion requirements here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8396056#post8396056
So for example, fire magic becomes:
Lore of Fire 1. Requires [Channeling 1 OR Mage] AND [High Magic 1 OR Slann]. Requires Lore of Fire tech.
Lore of Fire 2. Requires [Channeling 2 OR Mage] AND Lore of Fire 1. Requires Lore of Fire tech.
Lore of Fire 3. Requires [Channeling 3 OR Archmage] AND Lore of Fire 2. Requires Arcane Lore tech.

This has several advantages:
a) The code is already there, and the magic promotion requirements for prismatic magic already have OR Mage type requirements
b) We only need a single slann unit, they auto-upgrade with higher tech.

So, we have Slann units that are strength 3, get 0.5 affinity from each of the 6 feature resources, and can get mage and archmage promotions, for total maximum strength of 10.
They start with just the channeling 1 and Slann promotions. They get free xp over time from channeling, and they automatically gain Mage at education and Archmage at Arcane lore.
 
I would limit the resources to appear only in the 6 features.

ok :)

Oh, I could go either way, but I thought that you wanted to making these into spells on the Slann units.
I'd be fine with the Rituals as either hammer-buildable Rituals that required the appropriate resource, or spells castable by Slann directly on a big global cooldown, with a 2-turn casting time.
I can see either one working.

yay :) ill redesign them to be spells then not rituals :)
Even better; why don't we just give them mage and archmage promotions, acquired in the same way as heroes?
And make a Slann racial promotion that works into the magic promotion requirements here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...56#post8396056
So for example, fire magic becomes:
Lore of Fire 1. Requires [Channeling 1 OR Mage] AND [High Magic 1 OR Slann]. Requires Lore of Fire tech.
Lore of Fire 2. Requires [Channeling 2 OR Mage] AND Lore of Fire 1. Requires Lore of Fire tech.
Lore of Fire 3. Requires [Channeling 3 OR Archmage] AND Lore of Fire 2. Requires Arcane Lore tech.

This has several advantages:
a) The code is already there, and the magic promotion requirements for prismatic magic already have OR Mage type requirements
b) We only need a single slann unit, they auto-upgrade with higher tech.

So, we have Slann units that are strength 3, get 0.5 affinity from each of the 6 feature resources, and can get mage and archmage promotions, for total maximum strength of 10.
They start with just the channeling 1 and Slann promotions. They get free xp over time from channeling, and they automatically gain Mage at education and Archmage at Arcane lore.

why yes, i believe we ARE geniuses :)

Invisibility for a single turn isn't great either; maybe it should be a ~50% promotion wearoff chance, rather than 100%?

ok, temp invisibility it is :)
 
Top Bottom