SGOTM 04 - Geezers

This method gives no overlap, and gains a lot of resources for each city. ALong with giving us more coastal cities, something we do want at least at first...more importantly, it gives us coastal cities that have a lot of land tiles for use later on...the Green city, in particular, has a lot of cottagable land.

As far as Khan is concerned...he's far away from us to the south. I don't think we should mess with him for awhile. If no one else is around, we need him for tech trading between us and Gandhi...plus it appears he has some good land, giving us a fall back position for down the road, if needed.
I almost fully agree with this. My only concern is the yellow city. I am guessing the Indian City is Gandhi's capital. Will it give us the needed room to grow due to culture pressure. But then again in the long run we would let him have it any ways. I guess I Fully agree.:lol:


Techs
Finish out Masonry, then go Agri>Writing>Alpha
Beakers can decay over time, and there's no urgent need to switch to Agri immediately. As far as IW is concerned, Jenarie, it is likely that Khan and/or Gandhi will have researched it by the time we get to Alphabet, meaning we could trade for it quickly.

I have noticed that AI, agressive particular, is reluctant to trade away IW so soon. I do not have a warm and fuzzy feeling about getting IW from Kahn.

Builds
In Nidaros, If the unhappiness from the previous whip is gone, whip the last turn of the Granary and put it into an Axe. Then I'd suggest starting a worker next there, we'll need more than just one by then and will probably need a third soon after...but not from Nidaros. After the worker, I envision Nidaros beginning work on the Pyramids.

Just to be in the safe side, I think we should start the Mids as soon as the Grainary is done. Changed my mind :blush: . The unit build is most likely the better idea before starting the Mids.
 
With the large amount of unexplored land to the south of us we may find a fair amount of barbs turning up. I certainly noticed another barb warrior whilst heading south.

Should we build a few more more military instead of infrastructure? This is particularly relevant if we start building the Pyramids in Nidaros.

Good turn set Sam. :clap:

I think it may be a good idea to send our Axe to get some EX points. :D

I think yours and Thrallia's concerns are sound. Perhaps we should build another axe or a war chariot in the Cap after the Grainary.
 
Hi
I ran 2 test this morning to see when some builds are getting done. And here's what I found.


StoneH Turn 88/86
GW 98/95
Pyramids 114/139
Oracle 123/142
Temple of Sol -/123
Temple of Art -/127

Where am I going with it?

Should we give a shot at the Oracle in El Do?

In 14 turns we can learn Priesthood and if we drop our new city by the marble on the coast down south and build quarry and road it. We can build it in 1/2 of the time. I do not have time to do the math but we may be able to pull it off. just think about it. MC or some thing else for free is nice.:D
 
Do you mean the marble far, far, far South ? I think the maintenance we would pay is not worth a free tech. However I need to check the save later today to get to know the exact position, but from the screenshot I've seen in the thread it is much too far away.
 
Well, I just had a look and the marble is not that far south, but still I would stick to settle the gems at the coast first getting the horses connected as soon as possible. There are only plains around the marble and the other half we cannot see, yet. It is not an attractive site for the third city. It is hardly defendable and will not contribute anything to our empire for a long time.

Regarding tech I would take ag next and then writing or iron working. We have copper, so no immediate need for iron military wise and getting the corn online is more important now than clearing jungle for the gems. This can come after ag and/or writing.

We definitely need some more axes. As soon as the barbs send axes or archers our warriors will not be very helpful and I had VERY bad experience with barbs lately due to very bad RNG. Maybe I am a little overcautious.:crazyeye:
 
I think we have consensus on settling south horse city next. I'll send the axe that is fortified on the south hill down as escort with the settler right behind him.

We have three different tech paths by three different people. I won't be playing for a few more hours so hopefully in the meantime some agreement can be reached.
 
Tech wise I would prefer to see Writing after Masonry as I feel we'll want it sooner rather than later. Not only for the library but also because it allows OB with other civs although we don't want to agree OB with Khan. However I can live with Agri followed by Writing next.

Regarding Nidaros builds I suggest changing the granary to an axe. There's a 9 :hammers: overflow atm and the axe will take 5 turns. It may be worth skipping the granary in Nidaros atm and just start the 'mids since we'll probably reach the pop cap whilst the 'mids are building.
 
I agree that we ideally don't want open borders with Khan but if our exploration path gets closed off without them I'd be inclined to go ahead and take open borders. I think it is important to meet more civs and see who is around Gandhi.

Would everyone agree that it is ok to open borders with Khan if needed to explore farther but otherwise leave them closed?
 
Has anyone thought about archery? It is pretty fast to research and then what makes me like it is that archers cost less hammers to produce then axes do.

Archery takes 5 turns to research at 100% or 7 turns at our current break even of 80%. An archer costs 37 hammers & an axeman costs 52.

Seems like our tech has gotten ahead of our ability to do anything with it so it might not hurt to slip this in but I've read that a lot of good players skip archery entirely.
 
Coming down to the earth....almost touching down....touch down.

Well, lets see,

ElDo: 2 mines will take 12 + 2 worker turns. = 14

Capital: 2 mines at least and connect to ElDo 14+3+3 = 20 turns

New City: Pasture 6 (?) plus movement. = 7+

So I would say Mason, Writing and Ag.

Nidros need the Grainary other wise we will need to go ag route and work more food tiles to grow fast.

Got to go.

Oh if we need OB w/anyone to go scout we just need it.
 
Has anyone thought about archery? It is pretty fast to research and then what makes me like it is that archers cost less hammers to produce then axes do.

Archery takes 5 turns to research at 100% or 7 turns at our current break even of 80%. An archer costs 37 hammers & an axeman costs 52.

:nono: I can see why you're considering Archery but the point you need to bear in mind is that in the early game we have a plethora of techs to research and only a limited amount of gold with which to do the research. I had to reduce our science rate because of the lack of gold. Researching Archery when we have Bronze Working and copper is IMHO an extravagance when there are so many other techs that are 'must haves' rather than 'nice to haves'.

The extra military that we need, not to mention the third city, will reduce our science rate anyway so I would strongly advise against Archery. If you get the extra axe from Nidaros as I suggested and possibly part research another axe at Uppsala so that we can rush it if needed then we should be ok.

EDIT: I would really prefer to not have an OB with Khan at this point. However let's see how things go first. You can always stop part way and request advice/decisions if necessary. :) This game will run for at least two months, based on past experience, so there's no need to feel you have to rush.
 
I'm going to start playing in about half hour but please keep posting if you read this after that. I'll be playing really really slowly so you might still have time to make a difference. :)
 
Barbarians are already a big problem. I've interrupted the granary at the capital for another axeman since I can't do anything about the fact that our one mine at El Dorado is about to be pillaged. The warriors in the city only have a 30% chance to take out that barbarian which I would attempt anyway except that there is a second warrior threatening the city right behind him so we could lose the city to save the mine. Workers have had to move away from barbs so they are now prioritising hooking up capital to El Dorado so that (1) El Dorado can be hooked up to copper to make its own axe and (2) the capital can send help faster. Workers will get the mines back up on the gold ASAP as this is really going to hurt research. :(



It was a good idea to prioritise units but it would have been better a couple turns sooner.
 
Ah, it is SO much easier to look at this on my nice high resolution screen at home. I was going to hassle you all for making such crappy screen shots, but now I see it was just the ancient CRT screens at the rural internet cafe.

Fascinating stuff so far. I have no useful comments to make at this stage. Good luck with the barbarians.
 
I'm to turn 11 now and other then the hellish first four turns which you've already heard about it seems to be back on track for the most part. Haven't seen a barbarian since those two. Was going to turn over at 10 turns if it kept up that insanely stressful but since it is calm now finishing turns until either 20 or the next crisis whichever comes first. :)
 
File uploading at turn 19. Had to chose a build and didn't know what to pick so figured would turn it over one early and make Mark chose. :) As soon as upload is done will come back and type up turn set (took written notes as I played).
 
0) Turn 80 - 1600 BC

- Move axe fortified south of capital south to horses to escort settler.
- Long internal debate then whip monument in El Dorado. I think this was too early - please explain how to know when to whip in more detail to me before future turns. My reasoning was that Thrallia said we needed border pop ASAP and that it should regrow before second mine was ready to work anyway.

1) Turn 81 - 1570 BC

- Continued Workboat scouting south
- Continued moving Axe and Settler south
- Barbarian is south of city but when I checked it was horrible odds to attack it (on the jungle) so waited in city.

2) Turn 82 - 1540 BC

BARBARIANS!


- Barbarian warrior moves to gold hill next to El Dorado threatening worker that is mining. Worker is moved out of range.
- I didn't note when it appeared up but I think in this turn the second barbarian warrior showed up south of city.

3) Turn 83 - 1510 BC

- Uppsala (South Gem City) is founded
- First Barbarian worker moves to gold mine threatening workers.
- We had two warriors in city so I would have attacked barbarian at this point even at low odds (iirc 30%) to try to save the mine but if I lost the city was at risk to second barbarian + injured first one so I left it alone.
- Workboat gets stuck on Khan's borders and can't explore further
- Capital Granary build is interrupted for an axeman.

4) Turn 84 - 1480 BC

- Masonry Finishes ---> Agriculture
- Get message that Uppsala is connected to capital (coast)
- Barbarian Warrior destroys our gold mine at El Dorado
- Axe is whipped in Capital. I'm afraid that both barbs will ignore El Dorado and follow our road pillaging all the way back to capital if we don't have anything to stop them.

5) Turn 85 - 1450 BC

- We are saved! Both Barbarian warriors decide to suicide attacking El Dorado instead of pillaging further. Loss of the mine really hurt but this could have been a lot worse. Of course, now I regret whipping the axe in capital.
- New axe moves toward El Dorado in case that barb city sends more.
- Defending warrior earned promotion - left unpromoted so can be chosen later as needed.
- Started another axe in capital in case barbarians attack from the north - we can't afford to lose our copper mine. Meant to only do one turn so we could whip quickly later if needed but left it two before switching back to granary. :blush:

6) Turn 86 - 1420 BC

- Worker finishes road on pigs (where it hid from barbarian earlier) and moves back to re-mine gold.

7) Turn 87 - 1390 BC

- Capital switches back to granary
- Worker 2 starts pasture on horses (I realized later I should have sent him to help mine. All those gold are on desert which means it takes longer to mine and road then normal)
- Warrior that was second garrison in El Dorado moves south scout.

8) Turn 88 - 1360 BC

- El Dorado and Capital re-both grow to 3
- Khan doesn't seem to have met Gandhi yet. (I checked by trying to ask him what he thinks of him but list was blank.)

9) Turn 89 - 1330 BC & 10) Turn 90 - 1300 BC

- Warrior continues to scout south toward Barb city.

11) Turn 91 - 1270 BC

- Scouting warrior found Chehalis (barb city) on coast
- Granary in capital done in 2 but I don't whip as there is still unhappiness from axe whip.

12) Turn 92 - 1240 BC

- Warrior continues scouting south
- Horse Pasture finished

13) Turn 93 - 1210 BC

- Granary finishes in Capital, 3 turns to finish axe
- Gold mine re-built in El Dorado

14) Turn 94 - 1180 BC

- Agriculture Finished ---> Writing (10)
- Move worker to finish second mine (there were a couple turns in it when the barbs chased me off.

15) Turn 95 - 1150 BC

- Game popup tells us we should build a settler. It is probably right but I don't see how/where at this point. :)
- Warrior continues exploration : We can see enough now to suggest that it may be just us and Khan on this land mass. We may need to send another work boat north to meet people Gandhi knows although there is a good chance that would be blocked by ice or Gandhi culture up there. I consider bringing south workboat north but it will take 23 turns so I leave it in place to go further when we can get open borders with Khan (writing in 9 or less).

16) Turn 96 - 1120 BC

- Border pop in El Dorado
- Capital Axeman finishes ---> Worker started - can probably whip end of it

17) Turn 97 - 1090 BC

Nothing happened

18) Turn 98 - 1060 BC

- Warrior exploring south meets Khan's northern border
- Road connecting El Dorado to capital is completed (I'd detoured to hook up horses for Gem City to work)
- Granary in El Dorado is whipped. Iirc my reasoning is that I wanted to do it early enough for it to grow back to work that second gold mine when it was complete. I don't remember exactly why I whipped this when I did.

19) Turn 99 - 1030 BC

- Chose chariot in El Dorado but not started until you hit end turn so can be changed. We'll want a couple before barbarians get axemen but we have some time yet I believe.
- Worker starts farming corn at capital.

The save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Geezers_SG004_BC1030_01.CivWarlordsSave

I kept checking and I don't believe that Khan has met Gandhi yet.

Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1600 BC to 1030 BC:

Turn 83, 1510 BC: Uppsala has been founded.
Turn 83, 1510 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 84, 1480 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Geezers's Warrior (4.20)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Geezers's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Geezers's Warrior (4.20)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 84, 1480 BC: Geezers's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 92, 1240 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Nidaros. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 93, 1210 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

Turn 95, 1150 BC: The borders of El Dorado-sala have expanded!

Turn 98, 1060 BC: Uppsala will grow to size 2 on the next turn

I included a more detailed turn log then I think is normal in hopes that you can let me know what mistakes I made so that I don't make them again in the future. I'm not very happy with this set of turns although I think I would have handled it as planned if not for that barb attack that hit before I could get ready for it. We were ready for one barb but not two at the same time and it really hurt.
 
Thanks for the detailed log, Jenarie. You clearly had your fill of adrenaline and drama (which is the ultimate point of playing in the first place).

Now I can finally have a look at a real saved game!

Small question - how and why do you guys all put things in as "spoilers"?
 
Spoiler
How: Button on top right when you are writing your post.
Why: 'Cause I'm a copy-cat and I've seen everyone else do it? Seriously, in this case I did it because it was the log that SGOTM gives you when you submit. It isn't detailed enough to be the whole turn set log and would be repetitive but was including it for completeness in case someone wanted to see it. So for me I guess I put it there just to get it out of the way 'cause you don't really have to read that part.

lol on the drama and adrenaline. I could have done without that on my first ever succession game turns! :)
 
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