Improvement Balancing

seems more logical as well. Smithing is about the Anvil and forge, in a 'workshop' so to speak.

Machinery is about the construction of large gadgets and big toys to play with.

I like it. If only for those reasons.

Why not?

I'm still looking to keep balancing out the tricks per tech. There's a +1 production for Workshops at Guilds. I'm going to move this to Invention.

Guilds is a very high trick count tech even with a lot of modifications made to it. Its current trick count is 7: Guilds civic, Guild Hall building, Masters Hall building class (that is the Crafts/Servants/Victuallers Halls), Guild Headquarters building class, Hanseatic League, Piazza San Marco, and the two minor tricks of +1 gold for Tailor Shop and +1 production for Workshop.

Invention only has 3 tricks left: the Rider unit, the Artesian Well, and the Venetian Arsenal. I think the +1 production would be much more fitting here.

I thought the Hanseatic League was moved to Rudder...?

Tolni said:

I thought the Hanseatic League was moved to Rudder...?

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It's Guilds AND Rudder. Some things require multiple techs (War Elephant requires Construction and Horseback Riding).

Hi.

I've an issue with Jungle Camps and Forest Preserves. Playing as a Nomad leader, Jungle Camps are very good, almost too good. Then along comes the Forest Preserve "improvement" with Scientific Method and my awesome Jungle Camps "upgrade" to these lousy Forest Preserves. I think that either the Jungle Camp should not upgrade automatically to an inferior improvement, or Nomad should also get its Camp/Jungle Camp yield bonuses on Forest Preserves.

My poor citizens are starving thanks to Scientific Method!

Cheers, A.

You could interpret that as realism. Much of Native America's and Equatorial Africa's woes are result of westernization in how people relate to the landscape. The trade-off for having things like telephones and schoolhouses was year-round occupation of sites traditionally considered unfit. Maybe this transition at Scientific Method should be painful?

Another issue is Nomad has no place in later eras. You could fix that by making Nomad "Jewish" i.e. cosmopolitan... but perhaps some traits should be overpowered yet short-lived? Enjoy it while you can.

A boost for the early game, but one that peters out over time? I could see that being a thing, but auto-upgrading of improvements shouldn't happen. I mean, they'll happen eventually, just not over a single turn - it should be gradual like the cottages and mines. I've never really been big on the "It's realistic" argument for/against game mechanics though; I'd rather look at how it affects gameplay first rather than balancing it around how realistic something is or is not. It should be a consideration, but not the deciding factor.

Should we have an early +food improvement for Forests? I noticed that we have Woodcutter and Jungle Camp for early improvements that can be built on Forest/Jungle without burning them down. Jungle Camp is Jungle-only, and Woodcutter is mostly production, so it feels like there is a hole as far as a food improvement for Forests. I was thinking either Camp or Orchard could be broadened out to be not only a special-purpose improvement but a general improvement, possibly balanced by -1 hammer if necessary. What do you think?

Camp is available slightly earlier and would align with Jungle Camp as far as nomenclature goes. It would be more of a hunting theme as well (generalized), as opposed to an Orchard which typically requires a larger scale operation with a specific type of trees (specialized). I would reserve Orchards for resources only and let Camps be the general improvement. You could also add a small chance to discover resources as well (in this case, either types of game or types of trees), like other improvements.

I like the idea. Why not add both?
Orchard with +1 -1 and Camp with +1 -1

Fozman said:

You could also add a small chance to discover resources as well (in this case, either types of game or types of trees), like other improvements.

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+1

Here's what I noticed with a little analysis. How much pressure do we want to put on players to chop Forests early on?

Right now, if you have a Grassland/Forest with access to fresh water, the only pre-Medieval way to get it to food-neutrality is a Farm. (Once you get to the Medieval Era, you have more choices; Watermill is food-neutral but a Farm with Crop Rotation is food-positive.)

If you give a Forest +1 food with an improvement that doesn't destroy the Forest, that also makes it food-neutral, relieving the need to chop the Forest to fully support 1 citizen. +1 food/-1 production (total yield +3 food) is worse than a riverside Farm (+3 food/+1 commerce) but equal to a lakeside irrigated Farm. I think that would be fair, if we coupled it with tech bonuses that make it not as food-focused as a Farm in the long run. So the improvement wouldn't see a food bonus for a long time. The second Farm food bonus comes at Organic Chemistry, so that's around where the forest-harvester would get a food bonus. On the other hand, what is the real use of a tile that does nothing other than support a citizen? A population point tied up in a tile is usable for drafting or growing a city up to its cap, but I think that's about it.

The two things I want to avoid are marginalizing Farms and increasing Farms any further. Farms are the center point around which all the other improvements are balanced.

Vokarya said:

The two things I want to avoid are marginalizing Farms and increasing Farms any further. Farms are the center point around which all the other improvements are balanced.

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Interesting. Sounds like you consider farms to be very important, but I find I rarely build many of them, since there's so much food available in AnD from other sources (at least later in the game). The early farms I do have tend to get replaced with other improvements later on in the game, leaving only resource-gathering farms by the late Industrial era.

aggri1 said:

Interesting. Sounds like you consider farms to be very important, but I find I rarely build many of them, since there's so much food available in AnD from other sources (at least later in the game). The early farms I do have tend to get replaced with other improvements later on in the game, leaving only resource-gathering farms by the late Industrial era.

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What are you using for food then? I'm curious. I wonder if Cannery/Food Processing Plant need to be toned down somewhat. I don't think Cannery has changed much since I started working on AND. The philosophy I have is that food-makers should be +flat food, while food-processors and distributors should be +% food. But I also don't like micro-bonuses of a few percent.

Why you can't build a Forest Preserve over a Lumbermill but you first have to pillage it?

nionios said:

Why you can't build a Forest Preserve over a Lumbermill but you first have to pillage it?

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It's a bug with multiple improvements that upgrade to the same improvement. The same thing happens with Farms/Plantations.

I've settled on Orchard as the new improvement for +food on Forest tiles. So as not to eclipse Farms, I'm adjusting the yield curve a little.

Base yield for Orchard will be +1 food, -1 production. So chopping a Forest to get a Farm, or building an Orchard, should give a near-equal yield.

Bonus yields lose 1 point of food, but gain back 1 point of production.

• Apple: +1 food, +1 production (net +2/+0/+0)
• Lemon: +1 production, +1 commerce (net +1/+0/+1)
• Olive: +1 production, +2 commerce (net +1/+0/+2)

Then the tech improvement curve is changed a little:

• +1 commerce with Currency (unchanged)
• +1 production with Invention -- this replaces +1 commerce from Crop Rotation
  
• +1 food with Organic Chemistry (unchanged)
• +1 commerce with Globalization (unchanged)
• +1 commerce with Genetics -- this replaces +1 food from Genetics, and ensures not losing food in the upgrade to Hybrid Forest

I can also give Orchards a chance to discover Apple/Lemon/Olives. Would any other resource be appropriate? There are several other resources that don't have a chance to be spawned by an improvement, but only Forest resources would be valid.

Also, I am going to turn on the <bFreshWaterMakesValid> tag for the Industry and Industrial Complex. This makes these improvements buildable on Marsh tiles that have fresh water access, matching Workshop. I don't want early Workshops on Marsh or Desert tiles without fresh water. I think those tiles are supposed to be difficult to use in the early game.

Vokarya said:

Bonus yields lose 1 point of food, but gain back 1 point of production.

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I really don't see/understand the need for this. Food is food, not production.
I like all the rest.

Zeta Nexus said:

I really don't see/understand the need for this. Food is food, not production.
I like all the rest.

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It's so that an Orchard built on a bonus tile after the change acts identically to an Orchard built before the change.

For example, an Orchard on an Apple tile currently produces +2 food and that's all.

After the change, an Orchard on an Apple tile will produce +1 food and -1 production for being an Orchard, and +1 food and +1 production for being on an Apple tile, which adds up to +2 food and 0 production.