Vokarya's Workshop: Units
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
I have two thoughts on Naval units to share.
1. I don't think having the Siege Quinquireme is that great of an idea. It offers a capability (ranged sea bombardment) that then goes away and does not reappear until the Sloop and Brigantine in the Renaissance. Does anyone really use this ship?
2. I think the Caravel should be moved to Compass. Optics has a current trick count of 6.5 (Caravel; Glassblowers Guild; Marco Polo's Embassy; Whaling Boats; +1 sight for Water units; and 3 minor tricks in the Brigantine and Sloop, which are Renaissance Era units, and the Sentry I promotion). Compass only has 3.5 tricks (Adventurer; Seaport; +1 speed for Water units; and the minor trick of +1 food from Fishing Boats). The Caravel is the first ocean-going ship, but I think it would be more appropriate to have it at the end of the Medieval rather than in the middle.
1. I don't think having the Siege Quinquireme is that great of an idea. It offers a capability (ranged sea bombardment) that then goes away and does not reappear until the Sloop and Brigantine in the Renaissance. Does anyone really use this ship?
2. I think the Caravel should be moved to Compass. Optics has a current trick count of 6.5 (Caravel; Glassblowers Guild; Marco Polo's Embassy; Whaling Boats; +1 sight for Water units; and 3 minor tricks in the Brigantine and Sloop, which are Renaissance Era units, and the Sentry I promotion). Compass only has 3.5 tricks (Adventurer; Seaport; +1 speed for Water units; and the minor trick of +1 food from Fishing Boats). The Caravel is the first ocean-going ship, but I think it would be more appropriate to have it at the end of the Medieval rather than in the middle.
nionios
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 459
The Quinquireme is surely a unit of limited utility.I could use it only in a situation where I want to bombard defenses of a city that is difficult to reach by land(nearby terrain is not friendly with land siege units).
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Island maps, would be the only time I could see a use for them. Personally, I've never used them. Seen the AI's build them??
I'm not big on the early shipping units, but that's me.
I play Gigantic maps, Continents, so more a land power. Early shipping is only for mapping out coast/defending a required food tile.
I'm not big on the early shipping units, but that's me.
I play Gigantic maps, Continents, so more a land power. Early shipping is only for mapping out coast/defending a required food tile.
There are only so many roles that naval units can fill. "Transport ship" and "warship" are about the only two roles that I can see being really important, with a small sub-role for "exploration ship". I went back looking at the ships we have, and I'm happy with the early ships and the late ships. By the end of the Industrial Era, the main ship roles of Transport, Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship, Carrier, and Submarine are set. The early ships are also solid, being restricted to Galley/War Galley/Trireme in the Ancient/Classical Era, upgrading to Cog/Galleass at Rudder.
It's the early Renaissance that I think has a problem. Fluyt and Galleon are very close together -- almost but not quite breaking the "one-third" rule -- and the same goes for Caravel/Sloop/Brigantine. I am thinking that we don't really need Naval Cannon as a separate tech, and that Galleon, Frigate, and Sloop should should be pushed off to Naval Tactics. Brigantine would stop being a Caravel upgrade and start being a Galleass upgrade (no explore rival territory ability).
This would give you the Cog/Galleass pair upgrading to Fluyt/Brigantine in the early Renaissance. Brigantine would be the warship, Fluyt the transport ship, and Caravel tagging along as the exploration ship. In the mid-Renaissance, Fluyt upgrades to Galleon, Brigantine upgrades to Frigate, and Caravel upgrades to Sloop. Then in the Industrial Era, you start upgrading to Steamer, Iron Frigate, and Ironclad Battleship. Man-O-War starts a new "heavy warship" line that eventually becomes the Battleships. The cruiser line doesn't begin until the Battlecruiser in the mid-Industrial. I could actually buy Man-O-War starting the cruiser line with an "armored cruiser" unit between Man-O-War and Battlecruiser, but it isn't that necessary.
It's the early Renaissance that I think has a problem. Fluyt and Galleon are very close together -- almost but not quite breaking the "one-third" rule -- and the same goes for Caravel/Sloop/Brigantine. I am thinking that we don't really need Naval Cannon as a separate tech, and that Galleon, Frigate, and Sloop should should be pushed off to Naval Tactics. Brigantine would stop being a Caravel upgrade and start being a Galleass upgrade (no explore rival territory ability).
This would give you the Cog/Galleass pair upgrading to Fluyt/Brigantine in the early Renaissance. Brigantine would be the warship, Fluyt the transport ship, and Caravel tagging along as the exploration ship. In the mid-Renaissance, Fluyt upgrades to Galleon, Brigantine upgrades to Frigate, and Caravel upgrades to Sloop. Then in the Industrial Era, you start upgrading to Steamer, Iron Frigate, and Ironclad Battleship. Man-O-War starts a new "heavy warship" line that eventually becomes the Battleships. The cruiser line doesn't begin until the Battlecruiser in the mid-Industrial. I could actually buy Man-O-War starting the cruiser line with an "armored cruiser" unit between Man-O-War and Battlecruiser, but it isn't that necessary.
So Sloop would be able to explore rival territory, and be buildable after you have frigates? That would be a big improvement in my opinion, as you currently lose this ability when you get frigates.
Sloops can already explore rival territory; Brigantine and Sloop are almost identical right now, except that Brigantine is stronger and can hold a PEOPLE unit (special sub-type of all the types that Caravels can handle) while Sloop is faster and cheaper.
What I'd like to do is make Brigantine a pure warship and Sloop the only upgrade of Caravel, giving the Sloop a little more power and make it last until Iron Frigate appears.
Speaking of ships... I don't understand why the Cruiser hangs around so long when Fast Battleships (ugh, that name!) are available. The Cruisers are pretty much entirely useless. Missile Destroyers have the ability to see submarines, so they're OK.
Also, would it be sensible to just give Battleships more strength at the tech' which currently allows "Fast Battleships", rather than making that second unit separate? They're not substantially different in any other way are they? And at that stage I have never found the upgrade costs a problem; perhaps I don't build as many naval units as others...
Cheers, A.
Also, would it be sensible to just give Battleships more strength at the tech' which currently allows "Fast Battleships", rather than making that second unit separate? They're not substantially different in any other way are they? And at that stage I have never found the upgrade costs a problem; perhaps I don't build as many naval units as others...
Cheers, A.
Fast Battleship is faster (+2 speed) and deals more damage on bombardment (25% vs. 20%). I'm also going to add better collateral damage (increasing from 60% and 5 units, which is equal to the ordinary Battleship, to 70% and 6 units; the Fusion Battleship deals max 80% and 8 units).
Also, I think Fast Battleship should increase from +20% against Steam Ships to +50% against Steam Ships and add +20% against Diesel Ships. The Battleship's role should be a ship-to-ship killer. Destroyers are anti-Submarines, Cruisers are jack-of-all-trades as they can carry missiles and a tactical nuke and defeat enemy destroyers, while Battleships get the ship-to-ship role.
Here is a balancing question regarding the Swordsman unit. When it comes out in the late Classical, it is Strength 10 and is equal to or better than any other available unit. War Elephants are strength 10 at this point. This makes Swordsmen very good against Archers that are the common city defenders, and makes them better at standing up to Macemen. In BTS, Swordsmen are Strength 6 and Macemen are 8, 12 against Swordsmen for a 2-1 ratio. AND Macemen are 15 (base 10, +50% vs. Melee) so Macemen have much less of an advantage, only 3-2 and less than that once Heavy Swordsmen show up at Armor Crafting.
I think it would be more balanced to make Swordsmen strength 9 and +20% city attack, and Heavy Swordsmen strength 12 and +20% city attack. This will make Swordsmen a little weaker on city attack (10.8 vs. 11) and less effective in open field combat, and Heavy Swordsmen a touch more effective at city attack (14.4 vs. 14.3) but also less effective in the field.
What do you think?
I think it would be more balanced to make Swordsmen strength 9 and +20% city attack, and Heavy Swordsmen strength 12 and +20% city attack. This will make Swordsmen a little weaker on city attack (10.8 vs. 11) and less effective in open field combat, and Heavy Swordsmen a touch more effective at city attack (14.4 vs. 14.3) but also less effective in the field.
What do you think?
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Sounds good to me.
Does Grenadier need a defense bonus vs. Early Tank? I noticed this and it seems strange. There's a full era of distance between Grenadiers (Flintlock + Absolutism) and Early Tanks (Automobile). By the time you get to Early Tanks, Gatling Guns are available and Machine Guns/Modern Grenadiers aren't that far away. I can see giving Modern Grenadiers a bonus vs. Early Tank to have a unit that can counter said Early Tanks until Bazooka appears at Mechanized Warfare, but I don't think it's very likely that Grenadiers would be on the same battlefield as an Early Tank.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
I used to see it fairly often to be honest, which I thought was pretty annoying to the extent I almost never used Early Tanks. The AI would field Grenadiers in large numbers and would often render said tanks nearly useless.
Not sure if things have changed now, but I've been behind in the tech race for a long, long time in this game so I figure it'd be the other way around for once: I'm the one using grenadiers against early tanks
I'm going to say though that no, I don't think they need that bonus.
I used to see it fairly often to be honest, which I thought was pretty annoying to the extent I almost never used Early Tanks. The AI would field Grenadiers in large numbers and would often render said tanks nearly useless.
Not sure if things have changed now, but I've been behind in the tech race for a long, long time in this game so I figure it'd be the other way around for once: I'm the one using grenadiers against early tanks
I'm going to say though that no, I don't think they need that bonus.
If Grenadiers are that much of a check to Early Tanks, then the bonus definitely needs to be removed or at least toned down. I'd prefer removing it. I don't like too many bullet points on units, and the narrower the bonus, the more unnecessary it feels. (I was just thinking that the Chariot attack bonus against Axeman feels much less necessary now that Axemen come much later in the tech tree.)
Infantry makes a good check to Early Tanks. Early Tanks are slightly stronger at 36 vs. 34, but the Early Tanks get -25% city attack and the Infantry gets +25% city defense. Bazooka comes along when you need it to deal with regular tanks.
More bullet point removal. I'm not in favor of abilities that don't seem like they are ever going to come up to begin with or make a difference when they do.
Artillery and Howitzer currently have +100% vs. Archery and +100% vs. Melee. I especially don't think the bonus against Archery is ever going to swing a combat. The strongest Archery unit is Crossbowman at 9 Str. Artillery is 22; this is better than a 2-to-1 strength advantage. Also, I think long before Artillery is trainable, Melee units would have been upgraded to at least Musketmen. Riflemen are available before this as well, but the Musketmen is definitely enough to make the Melee bonus unlikely to happen.
Similarly, Mobile Artillery and Rocket Artillery have +50% vs. Mounted units. These are both Modern Era units (Semiconductors or Composites) and Mounted units are obsolete. The last Mounted units disappear before the end of the Industrial Era, and even the strongest -- the Elephant Cavalry at 32 -- is beaten 1.5 to 1 by Mobile Artillery.
I think all these bonuses are not likely to come up and can be trimmed. The bonus against Siege can stay. That is relevant when a bombardment artillery unit goes up against a machine-gun type unit and will stay useful until Minigun upgrades to Bolter Infantry, which isn't until the Transhuman Era.
Artillery and Howitzer currently have +100% vs. Archery and +100% vs. Melee. I especially don't think the bonus against Archery is ever going to swing a combat. The strongest Archery unit is Crossbowman at 9 Str. Artillery is 22; this is better than a 2-to-1 strength advantage. Also, I think long before Artillery is trainable, Melee units would have been upgraded to at least Musketmen. Riflemen are available before this as well, but the Musketmen is definitely enough to make the Melee bonus unlikely to happen.
Similarly, Mobile Artillery and Rocket Artillery have +50% vs. Mounted units. These are both Modern Era units (Semiconductors or Composites) and Mounted units are obsolete. The last Mounted units disappear before the end of the Industrial Era, and even the strongest -- the Elephant Cavalry at 32 -- is beaten 1.5 to 1 by Mobile Artillery.
I think all these bonuses are not likely to come up and can be trimmed. The bonus against Siege can stay. That is relevant when a bombardment artillery unit goes up against a machine-gun type unit and will stay useful until Minigun upgrades to Bolter Infantry, which isn't until the Transhuman Era.
MoogleEmpMog
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2008
- Messages
- 94
For whatever it's worth, I often see Grenadiers on the same battlefields as Early Tanks. It may hurt the AI a lot more than the player if you remove the unit's bonus, since that's the only thing that keeps it relevant.
The problem is that Musketmen upgrade to either Grenadiers or Riflemen, but Grenadiers usually unlock first, and the AI upgrades its entire army to them. Since Grenadiers do not then upgrade to Riflemen, the AI ends up with dozens, sometimes hundreds, of them until Modern Grenadiers unlock. The AI will prefer to build more Riflemen and Mounted Riflemen than Grenadiers if their army is wiped out, which is the correct play, but won't mass build Riflemen if they already have an army full of Grenadiers. The player is much more likely to upgrade only dedicated city attackers to Grenadiers.
I agree that Mobile Artillery and Rocket Artillery having bonuses against cavalry is pointless, though.
The problem is that Musketmen upgrade to either Grenadiers or Riflemen, but Grenadiers usually unlock first, and the AI upgrades its entire army to them. Since Grenadiers do not then upgrade to Riflemen, the AI ends up with dozens, sometimes hundreds, of them until Modern Grenadiers unlock. The AI will prefer to build more Riflemen and Mounted Riflemen than Grenadiers if their army is wiped out, which is the correct play, but won't mass build Riflemen if they already have an army full of Grenadiers. The player is much more likely to upgrade only dedicated city attackers to Grenadiers.
I agree that Mobile Artillery and Rocket Artillery having bonuses against cavalry is pointless, though.
May I suggest increasing the unit cost by 100% and doubling the maintenance? Currently it is very easy to spam units no stop and it destroys strategic decisions when I can build 5 archers on one turn on one city on epic. If price is increased, preparation will become more important. Also it would reduce the current problem with ridiculous SoD, for both player and ai
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
It's a difficult thing to balance as increasing/decreasing training and building speeds also affects the way AI is producing gold/culture/science.
Also, units training speed is also affected by mapsize and handicap: which ones are you using?
Finally, if it's just 1 city where you can build 5 archers in one turn it might be caused by different factors like buildings, hammers overflow or something else. Does it happen in ALL your cities? I've don't think I've ever built 5 archers in one turn on Epic in a normal game.
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