Resources Ideas

I want to start another thread for some ideas regarding resources. Here's something that has been bothering me a bit. We have two different manufactured Rubber resources: Synthetic Rubber, which comes from the Rubber Plant, and Vulcanized Rubber, which comes from the Rubber Factory. Either of these can be used for various wheeled units. This to me feels like a "distinction without a difference", and I think we would be better off with just one kind of manufactured rubber resource. I'm fine with having the manufactured resource, and having two different national wonders that produce it, but having two different manufactured resources that do the same thing doesn't feel very correct, and I'd like to remove Synthetic Rubber.

Also, the game does not handle multiple OR resource prerequisites very well (it accepts one AND requirement and one OR requirement per unit, but you can get two ANDs by using an OR with only choice) and I think it would be better to have one Rubber and multiple Fuel (Oil Products/Biofuel) choices.

I think this will be enough to be able to excise the Synthetic Rubber resource:

• Rename the existing Rubber resource to Latex.
• Rename the existing Vulcanized Rubber resource to Rubber.
• Change the Rubber Plant to produce Rubber (the former Vulcanized Rubber).
• Remove all references to Synthetic Rubber.
• Then we should be able to remove the Synthetic Rubber resource without causing any problems.

Do you think this will work?

I like the multiple fuel options idea, and the toning down the number of Rubber references...
Not fully sure about the on-map Rubber resource being renamed though, but that's just a minor aesthetic preference.

Ok with the idea in general, I also did not really see the use for two different manufactured rubbers.
I'd just leave the names as they are, Rubber and Vulcanized Rubber.

Noyyau said:

Ok with the idea in general, I also did not really see the use for two different manufactured rubbers.
I'd just leave the names as they are, Rubber and Vulcanized Rubber.

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*nods* Rubber and Vulcanized Rubber sounds good

Rezca said:

*nods* Rubber and Vulcanized Rubber sounds good

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I was trying for conciseness, but I can leave them as they are.

The Oil Refinery is a building that doesn't quite fit with the rest of the buildings that we have. Almost all of the resource-producing buildings are National Wonders to avoid over-proliferation of resources. The only three that I can find that aren't are the Potter's Hut (which goes obsolete so quickly that it shouldn't take up a National Wonder slot), the Steel Mill (which would be competing with the Ironworks if it was a National Wonder), and the Oil Refinery. I think we should make the Oil Refinery a National Wonder like the rest, and also tone down the Refinery Explosion event. This event causes you to lose your Oil Refinery unless you have a lot of gold handy (the base cost to avoid any other effects is 5000). What do you think about this?

Vokarya said:

The Oil Refinery is a building that doesn't quite fit with the rest of the buildings that we have. Almost all of the resource-producing buildings are National Wonders to avoid over-proliferation of resources. The only three that I can find that aren't are the Potter's Hut (which goes obsolete so quickly that it shouldn't take up a National Wonder slot), the Steel Mill (which would be competing with the Ironworks if it was a National Wonder), and the Oil Refinery. I think we should make the Oil Refinery a National Wonder like the rest, and also tone down the Refinery Explosion event. This event causes you to lose your Oil Refinery unless you have a lot of gold handy (the base cost to avoid any other effects is 5000). What do you think about this?

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I think the Refinery Explosion event should remain costly, even if the destruction it causes isn't as severe. By the time they can occur, you've usually got plenty of income.

As for the Steel Mill... I don't know. My only real problem with it is when the AI has sixty of them and insists on trading/gifting you one every other turn
Only really happens if you're on a Team with them (Either from the start as custom options or via Permanent Alliances). Hah, Darius had almost seventy two of them, and EVERY TURN he kept asking "Here, I think you could use this" until I had all but two of his Steel resources


Refineries could be a National Wonder... But then what would Standard Ethonol do then? It can provide Oil Products but... If a National Wonder is going and providing it automatically to every city, then all SE is good for is a slight science boost and the Distillery building. Unless I'm not understanding something properly Do the current Refineries also provide to every city? I've never really paid much attention to that...

Rezca said:

Refineries could be a National Wonder... But then what would Standard Ethonol do then? It can provide Oil Products but... If a National Wonder is going and providing it automatically to every city, then all SE is good for is a slight science boost and the Distillery building. Unless I'm not understanding something properly Do the current Refineries also provide to every city? I've never really paid much attention to that...

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Yes, the Refineries provide Oil Products to every city. Standard Ethanol gives you a way around having to have Oil resources to provide Oil Products.

If I remember well, the japanese UB Shale plant is also providing Oil products, while the original building does not. I just mentioned it, whether his feature is intentional or nor, I do not know.

Noyyau said:

Ok with the idea in general, I also did not really see the use for two different manufactured rubbers.
I'd just leave the names as they are, Rubber and Vulcanized Rubber.

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The 2 "rubber" sources cover both situations were you may not have a "Rubber" resource in you empire or available thru trade. So the manufactured Rubber was introduced to help in these circumstances so the Jeeps and other Units that were dependent upon a Rubber resource could still be built but with a bit more building process to implement. And at one stage if you couldn't build the Jeep line your Mil units could be at a disadvantage.

There Are reasons why these type things are in the Mod. Now that does Not preclude that the Mod has evolved to a stage were that "importance" is not a strong or needed as it once was.

JosEPh

Sogroon said:

If I remember well, the japanese UB Shale plant is also providing Oil products, while the original building does not. I just mentioned it, whether his feature is intentional or nor, I do not know.

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I'm sure that's intentional. I don't mind it as much when it is a UB, and there's a very good chance it will get overwritten by a clean power plant (Hydro, Solar, or Fusion).

JosEPh_II said:

The 2 "rubber" sources cover both situations were you may not have a "Rubber" resource in you empire or available thru trade. So the manufactured Rubber was introduced to help in these circumstances so the Jeeps and other Units that were dependent upon a Rubber resource could still be built but with a bit more building process to implement. And at one stage if you couldn't build the Jeep line your Mil units could be at a disadvantage.

There Are reasons why these type things are in the Mod. Now that does Not preclude that the Mod has evolved to a stage were that "importance" is not a strong or needed as it once was.

JosEPh

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My problem is just that the Vulcanized Rubber and the Synthetic Rubber are nominally two different things but have nearly exact gameplay effects. The only difference I found was that Ultimate Soldiers benefits from Vulcanized Rubber but not Synthetic. So I think we should combine them into one resource to simplify things a little. I want to keep both buildings, but they will now produce the same resource.

Vokarya said:

I'm sure that's intentional. I don't mind it as much when it is a UB, and there's a very good chance it will get overwritten by a clean power plant (Hydro, Solar, or Fusion).

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I still kinda wish there was more diversity to the Power Plants other than the amount of they give or where/when you can build them. I don't like using Nuclear plants because I have terrible luck with their meltdowns (Though I do often build them on contested borders and in captured/purchased cities ) and prefer Oil until Hydro/Solar come into play... Hydro Power plants have the chance of the dam breaking and fairly expensive negative effects coming in...

I remember the Microwave Plant in SimCity2000 had the chance of a beam misfiring and causing damage, is there a chance a Transhuman plant have some sort of accident as well?


I think that possibly an idea would be that the Oil/Coal plants don't obsolete, but gain a penalty when running Green/Environmentalism (Some events still refer to Green as such), maybe granting a bonus when Nanomining is researched... Fusion Power Plants and Solar Power plants would provide a bonus with Green active, but the former has a negative event associated with it (Structural damage maybe?) and the latter might need to be replaced every so often (Random or predictable event that you either pay a moderate sum of to replace or lose the plant).


Just some thoughts, but more thinking would be in order. I just think that there should be some reasons why you would pick one plant over another other than the unhealthiness one might provide, and I don't think the plants should obsolete - maybe after Fusion plants are available, but not before then.

Rezca said:

I still kinda wish there was more diversity to the Power Plants other than the amount of they give (...)

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What about Geothermal energy plant?
It's green, no melt-downs, but requires resource in city vicinity.


An other thing:

I really love what you did with elephants!
Now they really seem useful (altough I haven't tried them yet)
From that comes the idea:
Are you planning to add Camel as a resource and build a different cavalry line based on them?
Just asking.

Is it possible for a building to consume a singe instance of a resource? So, a Steel Mill would consume one (e.g.) iron ore resource, and if you had five such resources in your empire you could build only five steel mills? Then Rezca wouldn't end up with being offered 59 Steel resources by the AI... ;-)

aggri1 said:

Is it possible for a building to consume a singe instance of a resource? So, a Steel Mill would consume one (e.g.) iron ore resource, and if you had five such resources in your empire you could build only five steel mills? Then Rezca wouldn't end up with being offered 59 Steel resources by the AI... ;-)

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The same could be said for troops too. e.g. you can only build [x] amount of units per unit of required resources you own (Synthetic materials like Nanotubes and Vulcanized Rubber excluded perhaps?).

How many depends on the unit and possibly the rarity of the resource - and I suppose the map size as well.

Going on a Large map:
A single unit of Copper would allow for say 15 Axemen, 20 spearmen. Iron would allow for 20 Axemen, for a total of 35 axes if you had both.


Colonization has a system where how many units of a resource you have is important, whereas in regular Civ once you get a single piece of Iron you can fund an army until the end of time.


I don't think it'd be easy - or even possible? - to accomplish this though, and balancing it? Hah. While I would like to see owning multiple resources play a bigger role, I don't think it'd be an easy task. The Modern Corporations and the Guilds options both help a ton though.


I think the problem with the AI handing out 67 of its 68 Steel resources every other turn is coming from the fact the Steel Mill is a standard building that provides a resource for every one built, allowing for tons of that resource to be moved around when it's really not needed - especially since every civ is gonna build one in each and every one of their cities.

Sogroon said:

What about Geothermal energy plant?
It's green, no melt-downs, but requires resource in city vicinity.

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Yes, I'm definitely considering the Geothermal Plant, if only for something to tie into the Geothermal Energy resource. There are some resources that aren't doing enough and need to be tied in more places.

Sogroon said:

An other thing:

I really love what you did with elephants!
Now they really seem useful (altough I haven't tried them yet)
From that comes the idea:
Are you planning to add Camel as a resource and build a different cavalry line based on them?
Just asking.

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I don't think Camel units would have a niche different enough from Horse units to warrant all the extra work needed to add a Camel resource. Horse units are fast-attack, while Elephants are slow-attack. Camels would only offer a benefit on Desert terrain, and there usually isn't that much of it on the maps to really make it stand out.

Rezca said:

Colonization has a system where how many units of a resource you have is important, whereas in regular Civ once you get a single piece of Iron you can fund an army until the end of time.

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I think it'll be a balancing nightmare; we're likely better off adjusting Steel Mill, which you mentioned as being the cause of all those extra resources. Make it a national wonder (assuming we can fix the issue where it's possible to rebuild it if it gets destroyed)?

Kryanni said:

I think it'll be a balancing nightmare; we're likely better off adjusting Steel Mill, which you mentioned as being the cause of all those extra resources. Make it a national wonder (assuming we can fix the issue where it's possible to rebuild it if it gets destroyed)?

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Making Steel Mill into a National Wonder brings it way too close to Ironworks for my tastes. At that point, I would probably cut Ironworks down to +10% production with Iron/Coal, make it produce 3x Steel, and raise the limit to 3 and cut the Steel Mill completely.

Vokarya said:

Making Steel Mill into a National Wonder brings it way too close to Ironworks for my tastes. At that point, I would probably cut Ironworks down to +10% production with Iron/Coal, make it produce 3x Steel, and raise the limit to 3 and cut the Steel Mill completely.

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I'd leave the Steel Mill in (with its engineer slots and production bonus), only removing the "provides 1 Steel resource".
Everything else is to me.