The Deity Challenge Line-up #40 - Korea

If you aren't gonna micromanage much its usually better to be on food focus most of the game and then just lock a few of the best low food tiles you need.
That might work for me and my lazy play style. Absent tile locking, I have never been much impressed with the “food focus” governor.

Though if you go and read this thread it brings up lots of good micromanage tip
I followed and participated in that recent discussion. Nothing particularly noteworthy AFAIK. Your tip about running food focus with critical tile locking is more compelling than anything there! Would you consider going back to that thread to discuss that idea?

...claimed by [snip] around T30, so I'm kind of shocked to see all of you being able to plant an expo there without issues
That happened my first game. Maybe the neighbor had barb troubles? It definitely made me greedy! But I could only get it in the 3rd ring, so it came online late.
 
Spoiler :
After I scouted the cap it was quite obvious that they would try to settle there as well so I protected the spot with my warrior and declared war on her once she was on her way else I prob wouldn't have gotten it either.
 
There's also a bit of specialist micromanagement. For example, a Freedom game with buffed specialists can be quite wacky at times, because if you're pinched on happiness, just stuff all specialists in, if you have enough slots, you can get +10 happiness that way because of how the game works.

Similarly, at one point the Engineer specialist will give you 1 food, 3 hammers, 2 beakers and 1/2 happiness, which is MUCH better than working a Mine/Quarry. Moreso as Korea

4 beakers with secularism

Edit. hope its spelled correctly
 
If you learn how to micromanage, you will see how seismic the difference it is
If it were a seismic difference I am pretty confident I would have noticed -- and that folks would be posting evidence instead of just making assertions.
...and want to go back in time and tell yourself a lot earlier to buck your ideas up

For the record, I am definitely subject to confirmation bias and believing my own BS!

I think my larger problem is not being on the rivers. Sure, you get the +2 wet farms early either way, but water mill and garden are great buildings. Plus, it is mostly plains and not grasslands.

It occurs to me that I could use this map to test a few different play styles:
  1. Settle as I did, but use manual tile locking all game long
  2. Settle as I did, but use food focused governor, with some tile locking
  3. Settle smarter, use default governor
(1) and (2) would be more telling -- but I expect them to have little or no effect. So not much fun for me!

(3) will be less convincing for redrum and consentient -- but I am willing to put in the time for it.

So for this little experiment, where do folks suggest I put my cities?
Spoiler :
One expo gets two eastern wheat, one plants on the coastal fur for the four fish. I guess last one fills in the gap?
 
I think the location of my 4 cities is pretty good, provided the spots are still available, and you don't mind risking a limited war around the CB period with one of the neighbours to defend them. Hang on...I'll make you a pic.
 
4 beakers with secularism

Edit. hope its spelled correctly

+ multipliers so it's actually 10 with observatories.

One thing people don't do enough is buying banks/stockexchanges and focus too much on population, even if you spend all your gold on them after you fill the slots you are getting a bunch of GPT back again. I usually have production or foodcaravans depending on my cities(Production is more efficent than gold) till like turn 140 then I switch to gold to be able to purchase everything I need.

Some other stats that might be interesting.

1 citizen gives 2 base science(1 from the citizen 1 from public schools and Library) + 1 from researchlab +1 from University(given the +17% output) +1 from observatory. = a max of 5 science per citizen( or 6 in the capital).
 
I'm pretty new to the game so to some of the older players, are sub 200 SVs still possible? Or have there been patchchanges that make it harder? I've only gotten a 204 one and it really bothers me that I can't get sub 200. Maybe I just didn't have a good map for it tho.


Busan placement is great! Coastal, river, and the NW! (Not an option for my next try with map, but WOW.) I did not appreciated the location earlier...

It's pretty whatever to be honest, a lot of your Science as Korea comes from Specialists and having an observatory gives a lot of extra science which can make up for the extra population.
 
@NiSaSH you also have Seoul half again bigger than I did. So that would be something if tile locking accounted for that. I was already running internal food routes and paying attention to WLtKD opportunites, so I am not sure what I else I could be missing.
 
You said you warmongered early, maybe that put you far behind. The size/turn difference is pretty huge so it must've been multiple big mistakes. Like being unhappy for a long time, being to much on production, not having enough workers to get farms going etc. etc.

Also you stated you opened piety, I don't think that's good. I rarely ever even get Religions, most of the time it's really inefficent to get one. You also have a lot of tourism which usually is really bad, I think I build the Eiffeltower just for the five happiness as I was struggling a lot with it(It was pretty late when I played the game and I zapped through it in a couple hours) and that's where almost all of my tourism came from.

A lot of people tend to get distracted by wonders because they seem really nice but in reality are really bad. Usually you should only get wonders that benefit your victorycondition(Pisa/Porcelain are like the must get wonders the rest is pretty situational. Porcelain is really easy to get for example).

Also I rarely ever get Amphitheaters or Operahouses, I just never find the time(or rather gold) to get them.
 
You said you warmongered early, maybe that put you far behind.

First game, yes but it did not much distract me from growth, and the screen shot I posted was from my second play where I mostly just turtled.

The size/turn difference is pretty huge so it must've been multiple big mistakes.

That is what I would think too...

With all this prompting, I am remembering one serious setback: After 4th expo, happy crashed and cap dropped down to 1 pop (!). I never ran into that before, and I really did not worry about it too much at the time. It was only an issue for a few turns. Settling one expo on a lux would have prevented the problem!

Like being unhappy for a long time, being to much on production, not having enough workers to get farms going etc. etc.

No, except that one surprise setback , I think I managed the happy pretty well this game. I was only on production focus during WF and IG and the rare wonder. I had six workers, got the farms early, and bee lined Civil Service. All the usual I stuff. I did hard build those workers, so that slowed things, but lots of chops on the map.

Also you stated you opened piety, I don't think that's good.

No, I never opened piety (in either game). I might pay more attention to Piety for my third replay. But only what I can get after finishing out Tradition and before opening Rationalism.

...most of the time it's really inefficent to get one.

Well, I disagree with you there. Early shrine got me gem pantheon which let me found the last religion. I got Pagodas, but only had my religion in one city for most of the game. I picked up Mosques from a neighbor. When I replay this, I think I will make my cap the holy city or build shrines in expos earlier. My earlish faith accumulation was too slow (since I lost my pantheon shortly after founding) and I paid too much for the faith buildings. Still, I had enough to faith purchased a few GS/GE. But taking a few turns to found does not explain the low population of my cities...

A lot of people tend to get distracted by wonders because they seem really nice but in reality are really bad. Usually you should only get wonders that benefit your victory condition (Pisa/Porcelain are like the must get wonders the rest is pretty situational. Porcelain is really easy to get for example).

I think the only early ones I hard built are Machu Picchu and PT. I never seem to have any luck getting Pisa. Later I hard built Neuschwanstein and maybe Kremlin. I burned GEs on Eiffel Tower, Hubble, Great Firewall, SOH, and maybe even CNN Tower (in that order). How does any of that explain low pop in expos?

Also I rarely ever get Amphitheaters or Opera Houses, I just never find the time (or rather gold) to get them.

I think that and Hermitage is why my tourism is anything of note. I put one (filler) SP in Aesthetics to make them more affordable. Gold management I know is an issue for me -- as I never can afford the rush buying people talk about.
 
Wait how did your population fall to 1 from Happiness? I thought the only way to lose population is through Nukes and not having enough food.

Also about Religion it depends on a lot of factors if you got a good pantheon that gives good faith per turn and can get Pagodas + the 15% growth (or better the 10% from pantheon as well). It can be really strong. But oftentimes that's not possible and you don't want to sink your faith into trying to spread your religion against the AI. Especially when you try to go for really fast science wins.
 
Wait how did your population fall to 1 from Happiness? I thought the only way to lose population is through Nukes and not having enough food.

It is pretty easy for cities to start starving because being unhappy means less productive citizens which means less food. Owing to the cramped map, I started on settlers as soon as cap hit pop 3. With nothing in reserve, it starved down to 1 pop in like four turns as cap had no tiles with food bonus at the time. I have never experienced this before.

But oftentimes that's not possible and you don't want to sink your faith into trying to spread your religion against the AI.

Agreed. No missionaries this game. One GPr to enhance, then one to reclaim my religion in my cities (with a spare spread for the nearby CS who had a conversion quest).
 
@beetle

Spoiler :
OK, well I realised two things:-

1. I played more than 999 turns since the Korea game so I don't have an Autosave.

2. It's pretty hard to make one map showing all the farms, but I placed the capital next to the mountain, 1st expo 1 sq NW of LV, 2nd expo over to the East next to the mountain on the river 2 tiles from the spice, and 3rd expo N of 1st expo on the river next to the mountain in reach of the Citrus in the 3rd ring.

I used IGE to quickly simulate a T200 scenario and found the following, which you can use as approximate metrics if you like. Certainly my real game won't have been far from this at all.

Capital = 17 farmable tiles = 58 base food
1st Expo = 15 farms = 61 base food
2nd Expo = 13 farms = 61 base food
3rd Expo = 7 farms = 46 base
 
how big were the cities in that scenario?

I understood consentient to be saying that he farmed everything T0 using IGE -- so he does not have the T200 stats, just the T200 look-and-feel.

I played more than 999 turns since the Korea game so I don't have an Autosave.

Do you happened to have the save from the VC screen you posted? Or was that overwritten too?

It's pretty hard to make one map showing all the farms...I used IGE to quickly simulate a T200 scenario

Can you not zoom out enough to get the four cities all in one screen? In not, you must be spread out! Might you post the game file then? I am not quite visualizing it. But your 1st expo is not a good option for me. But I can get a tile closer to the NW -- and on hill and a river to boot.

I really wanted one coastal expo to open up sea trade route options. That did not work really work though, so I may skip that. Still, if I am trying to demonstrate that the default governor can do better if I give it more to work with, I should not change things up too much.
 
Nuts, I cannot get the eastern expo (with the food bonus) I got with my first real game. Site is gone about ~T25. Stole a two workers from the western neighbor this time.
 
In my game
Spoiler :
Persia
ran away taking tradition+commerce+rationalism with both HG+ToA buff and I lost important wonders such as LToP or PT. His capital is literally size 30 at turn 150. Finish time won't be that good, but at least with Korea there is still hope.
 
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