[POIL] Never used civics

I cant do a Poll (too many option), but there are civics are really never use. I think I m not the only one. Some civics are never used because it's not my way to play Civ. And maybe some other because... they are just weak. Maybe I think they are weak, and, they're not.
It's why I think it's a good idea to share this. Maybe if no one use a certain civic, it means it's really weak

Rule - City states : I lose a +10% Culture for a big unhapyness from war and a reduce military production. And a little less maintenance. Just no.
Rule - Federal : Nearly no malus, nearly no bonus. But Magistrates is better for this role, and far earlier.

Society - Caste system : -50% GP and -20% culture is just a too big malus

Military - bandiry : Culture malus is just too big for an early game, and bonus are not good enough for a later game.

Welfare - Charity : Early game, i's like a -2% gold for +1 healthy and happy in some city. And later, there are better civics.

Garbage - Waste to sea : Malus far too big. I can wait for Landfills...
Garbage - Waste Importation : In industrial era, gold is not a problem. But pollution and unhealthy is. So let's not add a problem on our bigger problem.

Education - Military tradition : Science, culture and education malus are too much early game. Mid-game, other educatiosn civics do a better a job. Late game Propaganda is superior.

Currency - Gold standart. Just too much upkeep for some weak bonuses...

The only ones on that list that I never use are

Garbage - Waste Importation
Currency - Gold standard

One of my favorites is Education - Military tradition for the extra promotion(s) my units start with.

Against Welfare - Charity I personal also have the reason that I would lose the production bonus from the Lichen Gatherer compared to Survival.

As I didn't play for a long time before I started my current game I avoid to comment on other Civics.

Most civics are situational and depend strongly on your playing style. For example, if you push your expansion to the max some of these lesser-used civics suddenly become useful. It also depends on game version. Halfway between V35 and V36 money was a lot tighter, and money was the main limiter to expansion mid-game, but in V36 money is a lot more plentyful.

Caste system gives extra money which is useful for a while if you play a game of agressive superexpansion. Also some extra bonuses like +2 xp and 10% extra science. And I don't mind the malus on GP as I usually only get useless Great Merchants early game, and as GPs become more expensive with each one made, I want to preserve my GP potential for when I have better specialists types available (like scientists and engineers).

In my last game, I expanded so fast the +3 unhappiness per city before bronze working started to hurt so bad that getting happiness up became my main problem, and I found myself using welfare-charity just for the +1 happiness from granaries. But I agree that it is a weak choice.

Also if your army becomes big enough (I mean MUCH larger than the 40 free units), military-banditry becomes slightly cheaper than tribal warfare again. Also Rogues are awesome.

The one I never use is economy - subsistence as it gives +10% food instead of the +10% hammers of barter, and I consider hammers more valuable than food.

I have no opinion in economy - subsistence vs barter. In my actual game, I m in a little continent, so I cant have a lot of cities, so I chose to make them big and fast.
I dont like GP malus early game because I raush Druidic Tradition and Shamanism, and I need 2 Great Prophet fast.

I certainly don't use economy - subsistence. Losing those hammers that early is certainly not worth it. Also I wouldn't use any civic with negative education - it's not worth it, and your new cities could end up with a net loss in education. I think I have used Waste to Sea once, but I wouldn't do that again. Welfare - charity and the socialist civics have too strong maluses and Corporate Agriculture gives you the one building worse than the waste dock.

Society - caste system can be necessary if you have gold problems at that point, and Currency - Gold standard at least gives you the option to buy buildings / units, which can be absolutely necessary at some point, while having a low inflation value.

Corporate agriculture is not a bad civics, but the pollution can be a big issue. I often use it for a short time.

Gold Standar allow you to spend gold, but Banknote too, with far less Upkeep

lol

I'm use all of them on deity difficulty.

It's a matter of play style, but something to consider about the Banditry civic is that most criminal units in the first half of the game require it - the Bandit Hideout building, which is a prerequisite for building them, is only functional under that civic. If you're planning on using early covert ops, you pretty much have to run Banditry. And don't knock how effective it can be - Rogues and Cutthroats can be devastating if used correctly.

Most of the others you mention, LumenAngel, do get superseded by later developments... but that's often the nature of progress. Charity and City States are best considered interim measures until something better comes along, but depending on your situation when they do come along, may be your best option... or not. Military Tradition allows you to build tremendously effective, highly promoted units, but it does come with some drawbacks to other parts of your civilization.

As an exercise, you should try using some of the options you currently avoid, just to see how they work out and what approaches they allow. Normally, I try to avoid policies such as slavery and human sacrifice (personal bias), but every once in a while I'll run them in a game, and under the right circumstances even someone unfamiliar with them can benefit greatly from them. Right now, I'm experimenting with an aggressive military approach - right from the start of the game I'm planning on trying for a conquest victory, which is drastically different from my normal, builder, style - and it's causing me to use units and strategies I don't normally bother with. (The Banditry approach is turning out to be enormously helpful with this, not just in terms of information gathering, but also militarily. Assassinating defending units while the actual military groups are still building up makes the eventual city attack much less costly for me...)

LumenAngel said:

Rule - City states : I lose a +10% Culture for a big unhapyness from war and a reduce military production. And a little less maintenance. Just no.

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I find this balances out but I rarely use it because its not good enough a solution for anything in particular that its worth the anarchy.

Rule - Federal : Nearly no malus, nearly no bonus. But Magistrates is better for this role, and far earlier.

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Not sure if I ever use this or not.

Society - Caste system : -50% GP and -20% culture is just a too big malus

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This is actually one to spam for because of the additional growth speed it gives to cities. And holding back on GPs are wise because you really need them later more than at this early Ancient stage of the game.

Military - bandiry : Culture malus is just too big for an early game, and bonus are not good enough for a later game.

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The criminals require this sooooo... critical unless you don't care to use them.

Welfare - Charity : Early game, i's like a -2% gold for +1 healthy and happy in some city. And later, there are better civics.

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I find this one worthless too. It's what it takes away that kills it, not what it gives.

Garbage - Waste to sea : Malus far too big. I can wait for Landfills...

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Unless this has been changed, the malus is less than the ones you're switching from unless you care a lot about diplomacy. I don't build the garbage docks but it's a good civic otherwise.

Garbage - Waste Importation : In industrial era, gold is not a problem. But pollution and unhealthy is. So let's not add a problem on our bigger problem.

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Not sure.

Education - Military tradition : Science, culture and education malus are too much early game. Mid-game, other educatiosn civics do a better a job. Late game Propaganda is superior.

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The exp is indispensable if you are staying ahead in tech otherwise.

Currency - Gold standart. Just too much upkeep for some weak bonuses...

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Possibly. Not sure but I think that I agree because I don't recall ever selecting this civic.

I grab Caste as soon as possible; the -50% is definitely worth paying for much faster city growth. Same goes for Waste to Sea.
Federal is excellent if you are running a huge empire; I'd say it's pretty much compulsory in the late-game.

I've never once bothered with City States, I think it is one of the weakest civics.

I usually hang onto Survival until Church comes along, however if I'm suffering from REV instability Charity can actually be useful.

I realised I am using the new simpler civics by CivPlayer8 so my comments probably don't apply.

Thunderbrd said:

Unless this has been changed, the malus is less than the ones you're switching from unless you care a lot about diplomacy. I don't build the garbage docks but it's a good civic otherwise.

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IA like to hate you. So the -1 malus can be a problam (unless you play with minor civ)
A little off-topics, but having this civic without the building is maybe a little.... strange. Just like having the landfills civic without building any landfills...

Squidimp said:

Federal is excellent if you are running a huge empire; I'd say it's pretty much compulsory in the late-game.

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I always have a huge empire after medieval era, but Federal is still unnattractive for me. Maintenance for number of cities is not a so big problem in the actual version.

I recall i have I have used ...

Caste system - For the buildings.

bandiry - For the thief units.

Charity - old habbit

Military tradition - When i wanted to get super units during war.

Note that just because you don't use it don't mean it should not be a choice for players to have. In addition not all civics should be optimal either. A good experienced player eventually learns the good civics from the bad and when to use them.

I very much stand by the garbage civics. I think they are great for what i wanted to represent.

I know it's too about how to play. But for bug war, I prefer Mercenaries than Military Tradition. Because XP is for me better than a random bonus.

And it's not about old civs as optimal. But some civics are optimal and some others are only in a rare case (juste like Charity)

For garbage civics, I still think there shouldn't be civics, bug a "Garbage everywhere" pseudo building replace by landfills, garbage docks, and others garbage-related buildings. because if everyone pick Export Garbage, who import them?
Of course, grbage as properties (juste like Crime or Disease) would be even better, buutI think, far more complex.

LumenAngel said:

For garbage civics, I still think there shouldn't be civics, bug a "Garbage everywhere" pseudo building replace by landfills, garbage docks, and others garbage-related buildings. because if everyone pick Export Garbage, who import them?

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This is a really good idea. I never build any garbage buildings before the recycling center & waste to energy plant because they are expensive and provide almost no bonuses, and there is no penalty for not having one.

Garbage civics could be re-worked to be like the housing buildings, where you start off with 'leave garbage everywhere', and then through tech advances you learn 'burn garbage' and 'dump garbage in the sea' which replace the earlier ones. Plus you could make the garbage buildings tiered to the city sizes like pest buildings are, like 'leave garbage everywhere (size 6)', 'leave garbage everywhere (size 13)', etc. As your cities get bigger, you have less open space to dump trash and more trash to dump. Landfills and garbage docks should only be needed to be built in the largest of cities before the industrial era.

And instead of trash becoming less of a problem as you advance technologically, it can become more of a problem. The garbage buildings can give + from manufactured resources, and the landfill type buildings could either give + or replace the garbage buildings. So as you make more types of water bottles and refrigerators you need more effective means of getting rid them. Historically people re-used most everything until the industrial revolution, and most of what they didn't was organic and decomposed anyway. Clothing was repaired until it fell apart and then the rags were picked apart for thread & to make paper, shipping crates were re-used or burned as firewood, broken tools were re-forged, inedible food was fed to pigs, animal bones boiled into glue, and urine collected for dyeing fabric.

Nevets_ said:

it can become more of a problem.

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Please don't forget the many problems our ancestors had with garbage, including the plague (at least partially because of garbage lying around. That and the fact that people thought it was a smart idea to hunt cats was absolutely great - for the rats). I don't think we have garbage problems of that magnitude now.

Other diseases that could be spread via garbage are polio, dengue fever, tuberculosis and sepsis. All of these diseases are potentially fatal. Even with industrial garbage today I would hesitate to say that the garbage problem is getting worse.

Don't really see a problem with garbage being civic driven. Nor any benefit to it not being.

Rule - City states : I lose a +10% Culture for a big unhapyness from war and a reduce military production. And a little less maintenance. Just no.

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I used it before v36, because it saved a lot of gold. But with v36 gold isn't a problem anymore, so it's fairly useless

Society - Caste system : -50% GP and -20% culture is just a too big malus

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Really? You list one of the most essential civics in the game as useless.
Yes, caste system is pretty bad, but it removes the massive "requires more food to grow" penalty, that tribal has. It's quite a while before a better society civic comes along. Not picking caste system will stunt your growth potential immensely. So, taking those penalties really should be a no-brainer. The increased growth alone more than makes up for it. In fact, caste system could be nothing more than -50% GP rate and -20% culture. It still would be much better than tribal.

I play with Culture as XP for leader. so If I can grab Agricultural faster, it really worth the malus to grow.
Plus I always manage to grab Shamanism and all these +5% food building easy to build if you us well Subdued animals. Grow even faster is not a good idea in ancien era.

And I didn't say Caste is useless. I only said I never used it because of these big malus.

Thunderbrd said:

Don't really see a problem with garbage being civic driven. Nor any benefit to it not being.

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More realistic? having a civics but not any building-related is not really different than "garbage everywhre".