New Game Speeds

I figured out why I could catch up with the AI so fast on some longer game speeds.
Basically it's because as a human I am more proficient in catching animals and the new +/+ from them when captured gives a significant boost in tech times.

A little part of this came about from mega upgraded Trackers/Hunters with 80+% to subdue due to Fight and Flight option but even when i did not the problem persisted.

This only did not happen in that game you gave me with Asoka because the land area I was on, and the hunting available, was so slim.

How would I go about to change the numbers of culture and science these animals give a city for my own games?

Cheers

BlueGenie said:

I figured out why I could catch up with the AI so fast on some longer game speeds.
Basically it's because as a human I am more proficient in catching animals and the new +/+ from them when captured gives a significant boost in tech times.

A little part of this came about from mega upgraded Trackers/Hunters with 80+% to subdue due to Fight and Flight option but even when i did not the problem persisted.

This only did not happen in that game you gave me with Asoka because the land area I was on, and the hunting available, was so slim.

How would I go about to change the numbers of culture and science these animals give a city for my own games?

Cheers

Click to expand...

It is all in XML\Units\Subdue_Animals_CIV4UnitCombatInfos.XML the smallest is already at 1/2 so don't see how you will reduce it. The values are adjusted for game speed.

I think I'll reduce the smallest to 0/1 and the rest can be halved.
Further into a game the gain from hunting isn't as big as there's more science overall anyway but in those early stages with only one city being able to get 3-5 animals a turn can be as much as +50 or even 100% research.
That's once getting Trackers as Wanderers can't really subdue much.

Once past Prehistory though the gain from up to 3-5 animals a turn (more, a lot more, if using the option for extra barbarians/animals) isn't more than a 25% increase at most, and drops more and more as turns goes by, of course.

Smaller area for animals to spawn decreases this too so a game can be faster in tech just because of accessibility to many animals, which can really mess up the timing for eras, months and amount of turns to reach whatever technologies at a specific game dates in the early game.

Cheers

@BG,

You do realize that if you ever play without Peace among NPCs you won't be getting squat from hunting with your changes. The # of animals are greatly reduced with that Option turned Off.

I think I'll reduce the smallest to 0/1 and the rest can be halved.

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It is easier to go to the proper Config file and just reduce the Animal Spawn rate. Then all these / levels that DH has set do not need to be changed. Too much messing with the main xml files for this when a simple Globaldefine number change will "fix" your area of concern.

JosEPh

Nope, that would not solve my area of concern as I like animals and hunting. I hunt animals for getting animals, not for getting science or culture, that's just a new bonus. I want Herds and Feather Workers and Myths and so on and on.
Also being "forced" to play with a certain set up should in that case be done without any other options available in my opinion.
If there's only one set of options that make C2C work as intended then those are the only options that should be available and the rest removed or at least hidden.

And I don't like that barbarians are hunting animals, in fact I think there are way too many barb cities in the Prehistory and I specialise a group of Str4 Macemen to take those out as soon as I can, and they KEEP spawning really fast.
Had there been less barbs I "might" have considered that predators hunted other animals, probably not though, but I don't really see the whole thing as an ecosystem and figure that those animals we see are when there are lots of them and that predators have their food sources even if not hunting those big hers and flocks we see on the map.

Cheers

Then I got nothin' for you. Just suggestions.

JosEPh

BlueGenie said:

Nope, that would not solve my area of concern as I like animals and hunting. I hunt animals for getting animals, not for getting science or culture, that's just a new bonus. I want Herds and Feather Workers and Myths and so on and on.
Also being "forced" to play with a certain set up should in that case be done without any other options available in my opinion.
If there's only one set of options that make C2C work as intended then those are the only options that should be available and the rest removed or at least hidden.

And I don't like that barbarians are hunting animals, in fact I think there are way too many barb cities in the Prehistory and I specialise a group of Str4 Macemen to take those out as soon as I can, and they KEEP spawning really fast.
Had there been less barbs I "might" have considered that predators hunted other animals, probably not though, but I don't really see the whole thing as an ecosystem and figure that those animals we see are when there are lots of them and that predators have their food sources even if not hunting those big hers and flocks we see on the map.

Cheers

Click to expand...

It would take a severely dedicated effort to get spawns quite right for both options. I understand they are a little less than ideal currently.

That's ok Joe, I already solved it by placing an own copy of the needed file in My_Mods with less Science from animals when using the animal mission in cities.

I know T-Bird and currently the option of NPC peace fits me better as I, and probably not the only one, like to have many animals around.
The Fight and Flight withdrawal promotions is probably more important to fix too.

Cheers

The Fight and Flight withdrawal promotions is probably more important to fix too.

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This has nothing to do with Fight or Flight. See my reply to your previous report on that.

Yes I saw that and I understand that it's the withdrawal in itself that gives the promotions in Battlefield Promotions, by surviving a fight with low odds of winning.
Though in actuality even 99% fights quite often give Battlefield promotions, just by withdrawing.

And even though it isn't something added by Fight or Flight it's still very much more prevalent because of the additional withdrawal mechanics.
Maybe remove the chance of Battlefield promotions when withdrawing at all, if possible?

Cheers

BlueGenie said:

Yes I saw that and I understand that it's the withdrawal in itself that gives the promotions in Battlefield Promotions, by surviving a fight with low odds of winning.
Though in actuality even 99% fights quite often give Battlefield promotions, just by withdrawing.

And even though it isn't something added by Fight or Flight it's still very much more prevalent because of the additional withdrawal mechanics.
Maybe remove the chance of Battlefield promotions when withdrawing at all, if possible?

Cheers

Click to expand...

I don't know... it's been an elusive bug to find and fix and has been with us since the beginning of Battlefield Promotions which we inherited. I've improved as a programmer since I last looked at it and understand it much better now so I might be able to fix it yet. Just need the time to look at it again and evaluate options. Might just be the odds needs to come from another source. Might also be that there's an equally bad bug in the xp generation for such battles as well that gets ignored due to the BP coming up.

It's also possible to get Sophistication promos for defeating animals.

Just tested the impact on game speed of having (versus not having) caves in the vicinity of the first city, on an otherwise identical game set-up. Was expecting a delay in reaching Sedentary Lifestyle without any cave-dependent bonuses in the first city. However (good news!), reached Sedentary Lifestyle at exactly the same turn number with or without caves (but 14 turns slower getting to Tribalism without caves).

Game set-up was Epic speed at SVN 9295, Monarch difficulty, Perfect Mongoose standard map size with low sea levels and Old World start, 4 AI civilizations, no leader traits, tech diffusion on, tech brokering off, more rivers and more resources. Saved the starting location with one cave 2 squares from first city, then erased that cave in WB and re-saved as starting point for second game. Did not rush Tribalism or Sedentary; researched all optional techs except 8: Slash and Burn, Falconry, Druidism, Shamanism, and 4 types of Domestication (Feline, Elephant, Camelid, and Megafauna).

Reached Sedentary Lifestyle at turn 177 (11060BC), with about a 30-point scoreboard lead in both cases, and not the first to reach in either case. With caves, had 13 great wonders (including 7 cave-dependent wonders that expired at Sedentary); without caves, had 2 great wonders (both cultures). Per-turn gold, beakers, hammers, food and culture were roughly the same by the end-point (with-cave numbers about 15% higher). Without a starting cave, the major difference between my score and the AIs was likely city count - I had founded 2 additional cities, 1 AI had also founded 2, but the other 2 had not founded any.

The only major game speed difference I noticed was in reaching Tribalism, because with a starting cave I got 6 cave-dependent Great Wonders yielding (per turn) an extra 10 food, 10 hammers, 16 beakers, 15 gold, 21 culture and 5 tourism points.

In both tests, 2 of the 4 AIs had caves near their first cities. When I had a cave as well, 1 AI got 1 cave-dependent wonder; when I did not have a cave, 1 AI got 3 cave-dependent wonders and the other got 4.

You can also get housing a bit earlier, and this type of house is rather good for its time.

I believe the GS for Marathon are quite a bit off on the "years", also, i have very very little in options checked, as few as i can, almost . .

btw, with all the changes this is the 1st time in 6 - 8 years i have made it this far?? YEAH!!!! turn times are around 30-45 seconds . . wish lower butttttt

strategyonly said:

I believe the GS for Marathon are quite a bit off on the "years", also, i have very very little in options checked, as few as i can, almost . .

btw, with all the changes this is the 1st time in 6 - 8 years i have made it this far?? YEAH!!!! turn times are around 30-45 seconds . . wish lower butttttt

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Question: Tech Diffusion On or Off?

If TD is On then the research rates are still too fast and so the dates are not corresponding exactly to the Era. I'm seeing this in some of my current test games.

IMHO TD is Too Strong in it's current settings. Then add in the vast number of World and National Wonders and keeping the research rate at the right level is difficult.

If TD is Off, then more evidence that another research rate adjustment is about due.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

Question: Tech Diffusion On or Off?

JosEPh

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Here are my options . . . .

So Tech Diffusion is active.

Game "years/dates" are tied directly to research rate.

And none of my test games ever made it as far as you have in this one.

My current Marathon game is showing the same tendencies. I'm in Classic Era and the date is 4000BC. 2000 "years" earlier than I would like. But my game also has Tech Diff active.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

So Tech Diffusion is active.

Game "years/dates" are tied directly to research rate.

And none of my test games ever made it as far as you have in this one.

My current Marathon game is showing the same tendencies. I'm in Classic Era and the date is 4000BC. 2000 "years" earlier than I would like. But my game also has Tech Diff active.

JosEPh

Click to expand...

No biggy to me, i dont even look at the dates anyways, i just thought u might like it, but again, no biggy, . . .

I am invariably far, far ahead of the date in terms of technology as compared to real history by the Medieval era, if not earlier, regardless of TD. I prefer to play with it off though, as it's rather broken in its current form. That said, I'm also invariably the tech leader and significantly more powerful than all AIs by that time too. My last game is/was well into Transhuman by 500AD (Snail speed, Large map, TD off, No Tech Brokering). The two strongest un-meddled-with AIs are both in the early Industrial, each with their starting continents fully controlled.

A lot has to do with the whole "bigger is better" situation, especially in that expansion gives increased production in all categories, with no significant penalties once things get rolling.