Sid virgin, AW virgin, OCC virgin, 20k culture virgin takes on AWS OCC going for 20k

I was inspired to have a go at this thanks to Mark1031, who managed to pull off exactly that win himself. Thread is here. Now I thought to myself, that didn’t sound too hard, I bet you could to that yourself. So here I am, having never ever played the always war or one city challenge variants, never gone for a 20k cultural victory and never having played above Emperor. Mind you, I’m not a bad player, I managed to launch the spaceship in 1475 in the last COTM (Monarch), but I’m not particularly great either.

I go ahead with almost the same settings as Mark, that is small archipelago world, 80% water, dry, cold, no barbs, young (mountainous) world. Call this plagiarism, but I figured they would pretty much be the best settings for this game. I set the civs to Mongols, Celts, Americans, Zulus and Arabs. This is because the expansionist trait is worthless on a no barb archipelago, and militaristic is fairly unimportant as they won’t be getting off their islands anyway. I’ll also let them be religious, they don’t get any anarchies on Sid anyway and they don’t need temples in this game either. I of course choose the Byzantines as my civ, they are just too perfect for this game. Scientific trait to let me research quicker, since I won’t be able to trade techs. I have turned SGLs on since I am scientific and thus have greater chances of getting one. Seafaring of course, perfect for an archipelago world, with one extra move on my ships and an extra commerce in my coastal city, and cheap harbours. Also good chances for suicide curraghs. And the most important factor, the Byzantine UU, the dromon. With the dromon I can bombard the coastlines of the AI and cripple them completely, and I can dominate the seas and sink their puny galleys.

Now for finding a suitable start. I figured I will need to be alone on my island, I need fresh water next to the capital, I will need some bonus resources in my capital radius, and I will need a few luxs on my island, especially ivory, which I need to build the Statue of Zeus, to get some free military just in case and some extra culture. I spend ages searching, but I have to discard all the starts because one or more of the above is always missing. I’m about to use Mark’s start (who had cows and fresh water near the capital and ivory on the island) when I finally get a decent start. I’m alone, have two cows, two wheat and two BG in my capital radius and only grassland and forest otherwise. There are 5 luxuries on the island (furs, incense, dyes, gems and hurray, ivory!). The only problem is no fresh water near the capital. Oh well, I guess the rest makes up for it, I’ll have to live with it and build an aqueduct sometime.

Here’s a picture of the start. I’ve already moved the worker east onto the hill to have a look about. I settled on that hill then for a very nicely placed town.

Buena Suerte.

Thanks. I've already played further than I've posted here and I'm doing quite well, but I've run into a situation where there are two evils to choose from. More later.

Wow. Good Luck!

Research is set to Writing at minimum investment to get it in 50 turns but make lots of gold. I start off by letting the worker mine both the cows and then merging him back into the city, which is building the Colossus. Through this unconventional technique I managed to finish the Colossus in 2550 BC, one turn before the Arabs would have, ensuring me lots of extra commerce. Since I built it so early it will be a tourist attraction soon and I will make lots of money! Then I built one or two workers and curraghs. The workers further improve the terrain and the currags go explore. We find the Mongols and Celts who are near us first, then the Arabs and last of all through suicide curraghs the Zulus and Americas. I must declare war on them the very turn I meet them but I may trade with them first. To gain maximum benefit from them I use two tricks which may be classified as exploits:

1. Since I have a monopoly on Alphabet, I can trade away Alphabet plus lots of gold per turn. In exchange I usually get two to three techs if they have them. Once I got the Wheel, Warrior Code and Iron Working for Alphabet, lump sum and gold per turn. Then the deals are broken automatically by declaring war, so I save the gold per turn.

2. Since the AI will only accept as much gold per turn as you are actually making, I set lux and science sliders to 0 before trade negotiations. That makes them accpet the ca. 12 gpt I’m making in exchange for their valuable techs.

Both of the above are borderline exploits, but I think they’re OK as I could only use them once in the game per civ. Through these tricks I got the following techs:
Masonry, Iron Working, Warrior Code, The Wheel, Horseback Riding, Pottery, Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism.
Once I had the appropriate techs I built a temple in my capital, and after that a granary. When I finished Writing I went on to Philosophy. By then only one or two civs (I’m not quite sure) had Writing, so I was confident I would get Philosophy first. My plan was to get Map Making as a free tech and then go for the Great Lighthouse. That would keep the AI boats confined to coastal tiles and increase the movement of my dromons. But while I was researching Philsophy I didn’t have much to build. Land military units would only eat away gold, I would have to do without and hold off the AI at sea. So I built a few more curraghs to explore and some workers, who I used to connect all the resources on my island and build colonies. I also had them improve my capital to an optimal number of shields. Under Despotism and in a 6-pop city the maximum output is pretty much 13 spt, which I managed to get with two mined cows, two forests and two mined BGs. I also built a barracks as I had nothing else to build, figuring that later on my free ancient cavs would have 5 instead of 4 hitpoints. For one or two turns I also set my city to wealth since my financial situation was getting direr and building curraghs or workers would only eat more gold.
Finally Philosophy is discovered, and behold, I’m the first to get it! That means I not only get Map Making as a free tech, but also a Scientific Great Leader! I give a shout of joy and save him for later. My plan is to use him to rush the Great Library when the time is right. I immediately start building the Great Lighthouse, only to find shortly afterwards that the Mongols have started building it!

Whoah! Sounds like a tough game. I'll be following this.

Good Luck. Use the leader now for the Lighthouse. It is well worth it. I'd also beeline to construction before Lit for the Duct since you are not on fresh water. I doubt any of these civs would beat you to the library.

Don't worry, Mark, I've already played further than I've posted. I played up to a point where I was unsure how to continue, and that was two days ago. So yesterday I started my write-up and finished a good portion of it. Hopefully today I will have posted up to the point I reached. But then I'll need some good advice. There's a few tough choices which are ripe.

So it is currently 1225 BC, and the Lighthouse will finish in 21 turns. I have started researching Literature which will finish in 27 turns but I’m running a gold deficit. I have two workers improving my terrain which will immediately be ready for use when my city grows to size 12. Otherwise I have about 6 curraghs. The Mongols have got Map Making and are trying to flood me with me galleys, probably containing settlers and lots of soldiers. Once I counted their soldiers fortyfied on a single mountain tile in their territory, and there were 8 warriors, 12 spearmen and 12 archers in one stack. Sh**! I have to stop those galleys. So what I do is a blockade the coastal passage to my island with lots of curraghs. The Mongols don’t attack the curraghs but try to sail around them. So I have a fun time sailing my ships around, I only have 3 of them in place and need to wait until the rest get back from their exploration trips. It’s a bit like settler blocking, but at sea. Once or twice the galleys attack, but I’m always lucky. When reinforcements arrive I manage to block them off for good. However there is another passage but that involves a large detour, but I will have to accept that they will send their galleys there sooner or later. I still don’t have dromons, since I haven’t got a harbour yet let alone gold for upgrades, and Constantinopolis is set to building the Lighthouse.

The turns tick by, and it gets increasingly tense. The Mongols could get the Lighthouse anytime! After more nailbiting turns, I finally grab the Lighthouse! I saved and played on to find out when the Mongols would finish it, and it turns out they would have had it one turn later! Phew! So I reload and go on from there. I will have Literature in about ten turns (I had to decrease the science slider as I was going broke). I build a harbour and a couple of dromons. I then use a dromon as a prebuild for my 40 shield library, and when I get Literature I immediately switch my build to a library, which finishes 2 turns later. This boosts my science significantly, and the increasing age of my tourist attraction the Colossus improves my financial situation. I’ve already abandoned 2 curraghs though, because the upkeep is hurting me and I don’t have enough gold to upgrade them anyway. I’d rather build 3 turn dromons then spend 45 gold per upgrade.

I start research on Mathematics (initiallly for SoZ and for Construction later) which will take about 14 turns, thanks to the library, with a neutral gold balance. I check the tech situation of the other civs, and in fact they aren’t really ahead of me. This is because most of them are isolated and have no contacts, and because their terrain is poor. The Arabs have Polytheism and Monarchy (I can tell because that’s their government already), but they don’t even have the Alphabet or The Wheel yet! The Mongols get Code of Laws and later also reach the Republic.

Wow, sounds really good so far, keep it up!

Could we get a couple screenies too please?

Now I use the Great Library as a prebuild to the Statue of Zeus. I could also change to the Mausoleum at the last moment and snag that. However first the Mongols, then the Celts and the Zulus start building it. I send out my only two dromons and bombard the Celtic capital, which has the best terrain and highest pop. I finish Mathematics and switch to Construction. This will take much longer, a whopping 34 turns at -1 gpt currently. The Zulu galleys have now taken the huge detour around my island and now would like to land troops near my capital, but I use my curraghs to block them. I change my build in the capital to Statue of Zeus. When only turn remains, Mausoleum is still not taken, and both Mausoleum and SoZ would finish in one turn. This is the exact point I’m at now and I’ve included the save here, together with some screenshots. Now I will outline the general situation and the problems which are implied therein.

It is now 170 BC. Here’s the general tech situation. Techs which they own and I do not are on the left of the slash, and techs I own and they do not are on the right, like in the civ diplomacy screen:

Mongols: Code of Laws, Republic / Literature
Celts: / Mathematics, Literature
Zulus: / Mathematics, Literature
Arabs: Polytheism, Monarchy / Writing, Literature, Map Making, Philosophy
Americans: Polytheism / Horseback Riding, Alphabet, Mathematics, Writing, Literature, Map Making, Philosophy

As you can see, I have a monopoly on Literature, the Mongols are quite advanced, but otherwise I have a tech lead over the other civs. The Americans are extremely backward, the Arabs to a certain extent, and the Celts and Zulus aren’t too far behind. Hence building the Great Library would only get me Polytheism, which is useless, since ToA is already built.

Mecca, the capital of the Arabs, is a slight cause for concern. They have 3 wonders (the Pyramids, the Temple of Artemis and the Hanging Gardens). I’m not too worried about the effects of these wonders, as they’re only continental and the Arabs only have 4 or 5 cities on their island, which is the only island they own. I’m more worried about their culture. Mecca is at 1352 culture and making 26 culture per turn. At the moment I’ve just cracked 1000 culure, making only 17 culture per turn (Palace doubled = 2, temple doubled = 4, Colossus doubled = 6, Great Lighthouse = 2, library= 3). However I will get a wonder next turn for extra culture, and I can get the Great Library for free with my SGL. So while I don’t believe Mecca will get 20k before me, it is a cause of worry. I should send dromons to pound Mecca, and also to the Mongols to reduce their tech lead. That brings us to our next problem: dromons. I don’t have enough, they cost money, and I’m busy grabbing wonders.

Now to the most serious problem: our Golden Age. I’ve already got a seafaring wonder (two in fact), so I need a scientific one to get my GA. Bot the Great Library and the Mausoleum are scientific. So once I build either of them, my GA is there. I could also trigger it by sinking a galley with one of my dromons, which shouldn’t be too hard. But the big but is: A GA is useless in Despotism. Each of my 6 tiles produces exactly 2 shields, so my production wouldn’t benefit at all from a GA. It would do a bit for my commerce, but only affect it by about 10%. Hence getting my GA in Despotism would be a disaster, a complete waste. However, the simplest way to get out of Despotism would be to get either Monarchy or Republic from the Great Library once two civs have them. So far, Arabia has Monarchy, and America might soon have it. The Mongols have Republic, and the Celts and Zulus could get it later, but they will have to research Code of Laws and Republic first. So at the moment I wouldn’t get to change government by getting the Great Library. But I could wait until for instance America has Monarchy, build the Great Library and hope for a short anarchy when I change to Monarchy. This way I would waste a few turns of my GA completely but benefit even more from the others.

Another option would be to self research to Monarchy / Republic without the Great Library. However, this would probably take painfully long. Polytheism would take 16 turns at current research rate, and I’d guesstimate Monarchy to be around 40 turns. With the self research variant I could get out of Despotism before I build the Great Library and hence trigger my GA. I could also research to Monarchy straightaway and abort research on Construction.

Other choices: Republic vs. Monarchy seems clearly in favour of Monarchy. Before I start wondering whether the extra unit support will hurt me more in a Republic than the extra commerce will benefit me, the war weariness of Republic would make an AW game impossible! So I will go for Monarchy. Secondly, I would also prefer to have my GA once I have an aqueduct, so that my city can draw an increased benefit from it. But I will need 31 turns for Construction plus a little more depending if I use a prebuild or not. Thirdly, when should I use my SGL? I was planning to use it for the Great Library, but owing to my monopoly on Literature it might take the AI a while to build it. I could also save it for later; I think the Sistine Chapel would be a good investment. Last of all, what will I build thanks to my GA? Perhaps I could get the Great Wall for its limited culture? Otherwise there’s not much I could build.

So since this has all been quite confusing (I’m not sure I really understand everything myself) I will sum up the possible general strategies here:

1. Build Mausoleum now, immediately followed by GL from SGL, get GA but in Despotism, then build SoZ. I do not favour this option.
2. Build SoZ now, then wait until America has Monarchy to use SGL to build GL, discover Monarchy, hopefully have a short anarchy, and get into Monarchy with a GA.
3. Self research first Construction, then Poly, then Monarchy. Have revolution, then build GL with or without SGL. Alternatively go for Poly and Monarchy before Construction.

I’d be particularly interested to see what Mark feels the best course of action would be. As requested I will now post two screenshots of my capital, however in crappy quality. I’ve also added the start save and the current save.

I think you should go with the SoZ, because that means you will build up a reliable military so Constantinople can work on other important city improvements. Also, you seem to be doing well with techs now without the GL, so it wouldnt be that much of a help to you, again this is all IMO.

Since I have not had a lot of feedback I have decided to go on with my own plan. I decided on option number 3. I had 31 turns to go on Construction, and whilst researching it I cranked out a few dromons. I also disbanded the curraghs instead of upgrading them, as my financial situation was getting dire, and I wanted to keep up research. So my treasury was always around 10 gold and I kept disbanding curraghs to build dromons. I also figured out a good use for the ancient cavs: Since I wasn’t planning on any land warfare I figured I could use them to add 2 spt to my city – disbanding them gets me 10 shields, and I get a new one every 5 turns. So when my 6-pop city was going at 13 spt I built 30 shield dromons in 2 turns by disbanding an ancient cav or two currags for 3 shields each.

I kept sending the dromons I was building to block Mongol galleys and to ravage the Mongol coastline. The Mongols were getting very strong, they now had 40% of world population because they were sitting on a rather large island and had managed to settle another smaller one. They were building up a tech lead and reached the MA ages before anyone else. So I bombed their coastlines and starved their cities a little, and disconnected their wines, which was their only lux and was solely on coastal tiles. The Arabs meanwhile were catching up in techs but still behind, so I left them alone and concentrated my efforts solely on Genghis and his motley bunch.

Eight turns before Construction comes in I use the Great Library as a prebuild to an aqueduct, so I get it as soon as Construction comes in. I immediately merge my remaining worker into the city after growth so I already have a size 8 city. I build a Colloseum after the aqueduct for the culture and happiness. I set research to Polytheism, since I want to grab Monarchy without the Great Library. Polytheism will take about 15 turns. I pass the turns building the Colloseum and then one or two dromons. Once Polytheism is discovered I set research to Monarchy, which will take around 30 turns. I now have to generate Wealth for a bit to avoid bankrupcy and keep research going. I now have 13 dromons eating away at my financial reserves. My size 10 city is now generating 20 spt so I would take 20 turns to build the Great Library. I start building it when Monarchy is about 17 turns away.

My dromons continue bombarding the Mongols, and it starts becoming painfully boring. To understand me you must know that the chances of a successful bombardment are about slightly higher than one in ten, so it takes ages to get a successful bombardment. Moving around 13 ships and making them bombard every turn whilst only destroying one tile improvement per turn can be extremely dull. The Mongols build the Great Wall and soon after start building Sun Tzus. Later on I even see them planting forests. Oh dear, they already have Feudalism and Engineering. And the Great Library won’t help in catching up to much because the other civs are so backward.

Monarchy is finally researched and I enter a 4-turn anarchy. This is because only having one city reduces my period of anarchy significantly. I set three taxmen to get me some gold, and when the period of anarchy finishes, the Great Library is due in 4 turns. I start researching Currency to get a marketplace. The Arabs by now are the first AI to get Literature and start building the Great Library, but much too late. One turn before I finish it I check the tech situation, which I will present in the same format as in the previous post:

Mongols: Code of Laws, Republic, Currency, and at least Feudalism and Engineering / Literature
Celts: Code of Laws, Republic / Literature, Monarchy
Zulus: Code of Laws / Literature, Monarchy
Arabs: Tech parity
Americans: / Writing, Literature, Philsophy, Map Making

It is now 760 AD. As you can see building the Great Library will only get me Code of Laws (and Republic, which is useless to me). I think I will set research to 0 to make some money and finance my dromons. I hope that my bombardment has crippled the Mongols’ research ability, so they don’t get too much of a lead, and I hope that someone researches Currency soon to propel me into the MA, where I hope I will draw Monotheism as a free tech.

Just to tell everyone that I haven't forgotten this. As announced in the Official Leaving/Arriving/Introduction Thread, I moved to Cambridge two weeks ago but I still don't have my computer set up, because I'm not yet in my final room. I have internet access for the time being via another computer, but I will have my own computer ready for civing in about 10 days. Then of course I still have to play on, which I will for sure, and I'll post the outcome here as soon as I can.

Glad to hear it.

Good luck.

It has been awhile since this has updated so what has happened?

I thought he had won...or was that another game...

I had the same impression as Ansar.... Was that another game?

yes it was, I just remembered.