Some thoughts on a score based HoF

Hi All,

Has a score based (Firaxis score) HoF ever been considered? Some might say that G/WOTM cover that, but in reality they don't. There are only 2 games per month, and they have set parameters. Compare this to the event, goal driven idea behind HoF and I can't really see a comparison.

Also, the Firaxis score takes into account the finish date. From what I'm seeing, if the HoF were to continue, by mathematical reasoning, the top spots in the tables would all have almost the same dates. With the current HoF, everybody is gunning for a single victory point: 4000BC. As time progresses, everybody will gradually improve and migrate their HoF entires to this date, therefore the finish dates will start to get closer to each other, closer to 4000BC, and will start to duplicate.

Now if you look at a purely Firaxis score HoF, everybody is gunning for... infinity. (Yes, there is a theoretical maximum score for each game, but what's interesting is that maximum score changes each and every turn.) I think there are many more complex factors that go into a Firaxis score, versus trying to minimize your finish date. Having a Firaxis score HOF makes for a more (mathematically) interesting array of games.

For example, each entry in the current HoF table can theoretically be duplicated (although maybe not easy to do, it can be done with certainty). Whereas maximizing score will always result in a wide range of games, where the likelihood of a game being duplicated approaches zero.

To further discuss this point, if you take a game that has 200 turns, and have two players with duplicate maps play the exact same play each turn up until turn 150, the likelihood of the scores being different is extremely high. Granted at that point the scores would be close, but the likelihood of two or more players playing the exact same play on the exact same map for 150 turns is improbable (but still theoretically possible if you look at statistics).

Now compare this to two or more players gunning for the fastest conquest victory. Many players can get this done in a handful of turns. To demonstrate this point, look at the top 10 for Conquest Duel. (Notice the Firaxis scores are much more varied compared to the finish dates)

Anyway, long post, but I'd like to get some reactions.

(I wanted to add this as another post instead of editing to ensure I'm not editing the original post after thoughts are given )
My logic above may be completely wrong, which is why I'd like some thoughts.

I'm not proposing changing the current HoF because a score based HoF would result in longer games, and some people may not want to play for that long. I think it would be cool to see this as another HoF completely.

What would be even cooler is if Firaxis could hold some official HoF competition so that more players would participate. Maybe they could even award prizes or something (the whole idea being that this would help further promote their game and their company). The current HoF staff have the infrastructure in place to minimize cheats/hacks.

Interesting thoughts. And I see your point about aiming for 4000BC versus infinte score. Personally I like playing games where I maximize for score.

But score is already one of the 'victory conditions' in HoF, and people are free to compete in these tables as much as they like. I would be interested in hearing what you propose in addition to what is already implemented in HoF.

same thought as miraculix, there already is a score-based table.

Miraculix said:

But score is already one of the 'victory conditions' in HoF, and people are free to compete in these tables as much as they like. I would be interested in hearing what you propose in addition to what is already implemented in HoF.

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That is true, but that is only one small portion of the entire HoF tables. What I would like to see is an entire HoF that is based solely on Firaxis score, instead of finish date (since finish date is already factored into the Firaxis score). For example, the score victory condition is a combination of all victory conditions (meaning you could have completed any of the victory conditions to get into the 'score' table). I would like to see who can get the highest Deity Conquest Huge score, the Deity Conquest Large score, the Deity Conquest Standard score, etc...

Instead of minimizing finish date, try to maximize score for all events/tables. It would be cool to be able to compete for a Quattromaster-type of title based on score, rather than finish date.

Not interested in score absolutely. We have several speed tables to fill on date now, adding whole new score table set is an overkill.

OneBinary said:

What would be even cooler is if Firaxis could hold some official HoF competition so that more players would participate. Maybe they could even award prizes or something (the whole idea being that this would help further promote their game and their company). The current HoF staff have the infrastructure in place to minimize cheats/hacks.

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We're the Hall of Fame of the biggest Civ site on the planet. We don't need Firaxis to make us cooler.

Ain'y they bankrupt anyway, or was it Take2?

I think score could be used as a tiebreaker when tied for earliest date. That would make gunning for the quick conquest on a duel map less rewarding for Qscore.

playshogi said:

I think score could be used as a tiebreaker when tied for earliest date..

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It already is.

superslug said:

It already is.

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How? All the games on, for example, prince, duel, conquest, marathon, finish at 3835BC and all get 30 q-points (if raging barbs were on). If score were used as a tiebreaker, only bostich's game with 21218 points would get the max q-points and all others would be lower.

It is only one place in the Table itself. E.g. currently jesusin got the same date for Deity Standard Culture, but better score, so watch him replace my result in this cell next update - if noone improves his by then

I am sorry, OneBinary, but I completely disagree with your idea. I am not interested at all in score.

Why shouldn’t I finish a game this turn if I can? To maximize an artificial factor called ‘points’? IMHO Firaxis score is just meaningless. The same Duel Map you are using as an example, would be a pain to play if the goal is maximizing Firaxis score. I don’t think I will ever become a Quatromaster because I won’t ever purposely aim for a Time Victory. But that's just me.

jesusin said:

I am sorry, OneBinary, but I completely disagree with your idea. I am not interested at all in score.

Why shouldn’t I finish a game this turn if I can? To maximize an artificial factor called ‘points’? IMHO Firaxis score is just meaningless. The same Duel Map you are using as an example, would be a pain to play if the goal is maximizing Firaxis score. I don’t think I will ever become a Quatromaster because I won’t ever purposely aim for a Time Victory. But that's just me.

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Maximizing score is not the same as Time victory. If you look at the current HOF tables for score, most #1 games have a finish date before 500AD, maybe even before 1AD.
Some people have a preference for fast finishes, while others have a preference for maximizing scores. What about implementing a 'sort by' option on the HoF pages? Then people can choose to sort by score or sort by finish date? This doesn't solve the fact that Score is just one of many subevents in Quatromaster though.

Miraculix said:

This doesn't solve the fact that Score is just one of many subevents in Quatromaster though.

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It would probably be a moderate amount of work to launch an additional Score-Quatromaster where the only the score Qscores are used for all events and subevents. Since every game has both a date Qscore and a score Qscore, people will automaticall qualify for both versions of the Quatromaster. With this approach, people can choose which version they want to emphasize in thir gameplay.

My total support to jesusin here. Milking is no fun.

Miraculix said:

It would probably be a moderate amount of work to launch an additional Score-Quatromaster where the only the score Qscores are used for all events and subevents. Since every game has both a date Qscore and a score Qscore, people will automaticall qualify for both versions of the Quatromaster. With this approach, people can choose which version they want to emphasize in thir gameplay.

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I agree with the quoted post 100%, typos and all!!

OneBinary said:

Has a score based (Firaxis score) HoF ever been considered?

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Sort of. Not happening. The score subevent of Machiavelli is about all you'll get.

HOF-III used to be purely score, back when I started competing, and trust me when I say the current format including makes for a much more enjoyable and educational competitive environment.

superslug said:

Sort of. Not happening. The score subevent of Machiavelli is about all you'll get.

HOF-III used to be purely score, back when I started competing, and trust me when I say the current format including makes for a much more enjoyable and educational competitive environment.

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Let me start by saying that I have a lot of respect for the amount of work the HOF administrators invest into making HOF an enjoyable competition. I would certainly not request or even suggest that they should commit to an additional substantial workload in administering HOF.

But workload is not the argument I am hearing in this case. The only argument against this proposal seems to be that 'optimizing for score (milking) is no fun'. In my view, this would have been a valid argument if the proposal was to replace the existing HOF. But that is not the case. The proposal is to create a score-based HOF in addition to the existing HOF. As I pointed out in an earlier post, this can be implemented easily by allowing people to sort the HOF tables either by finish date or by score. A similar approach can be used for the Quattromaster tables. As long as people are not 'forced' to play more milking games than before, what is wrong by giving people more choices? People who don't like milking can continue playing as before, and choose the 'sort-by-date' tab to see how their games are ranked. People who like milking can choose the 'sort-by-score' tab.

I am not convinced about the relevance of comparing with HOF-III. In CIV III, maximizing your score implied playing until 2050AD. This is certainly not the case in CIV-IV. In many cases, maximum score is reached before 1 AD. Also, with a score-based HOF, people would be encouraged to maximize their score not only for any victory condition, but for every victory condition. This is why I believe a score-based HOF-IV would be much more fun than HOF-III.

As your impetus seems to come from desire to see score-Quattromastery, this technically can be done now as for each sybmission the score-q-score is calculated. No need for another HOF table. Personally I don't care about score, so neither support the idea nor oppose it.