The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Htadus said:
Agreed. I was not real clear in my first post. When I said be careful about cash reserves, my thought was you might need to take 4-5 turns instead of 3. But finishing CoL is the priority for sure.
SGOTM 15 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Agreed. I was not real clear in my first post. When I said be careful about cash reserves, my thought was you might need to take 4-5 turns instead of 3. But finishing CoL is the priority for sure.
Maybe not that long after killing Hammies stack of Doom. I have a feeling MP and CP did some of that. Hammy do not have that many cities, 6 on conti and 2 away. He is not going to last. Your great confidence greatly concerns me. I did do some damage -- destroyed all of Hams stack outside of Pat (3 knights, 4 maces, two cats, and 2 chariots), losing 6 cats and 3 crosses in the process -- but our units are just not that powerful against an appropriate defender (unless it has been BADLY hurt by collateral damage). WEs are needed to deal with knight/mace combo and wished I had had HAs to go after cats once Hams other units were maximally damaged (his cats probably wouldnt have defended against the HAs, allowing them to eliminate other units). Then Ham showed up with another even larger stack just as AP peace was declared, including 7 more cats and more knights with at least two trebs. (Fortunately, most of those units retreated to Babylon our caravel can check -- and most would be advanced only 3 tiles at a time.) Moreover, the roaded terrain in Bab gives the defender with siege weapons and flanking attack great advantage. Plus, Ham has naval superiority with numerous caravels. Not saying it cant or shouldnt be done, just that it will not be simple and easy.
If Persians attack the deer tile accross water and into a forest, then our losses will be minimum as long as the collateral is split amung many units. Cats can not kill and has CR2 promos mainly. Only the 3 HA will be able to do any real harm. All others will be dead meat. Think this is all probably academic, but Ham has 10 cats, 2 crosses, 2 swords, 3 axes, and 3 immortals, as well as 3 HAs. Are you sure we have enough units to spread the damage thinly?
ESP: I played MadScientists Julian Assange roleplaying game. Once we get some CH's going we can do some shocking tech stealing. As for now, we should split between the two Ai and steal Monarchy from Toku and Vassalage from Hammy. We need to infect the two cities with Hindu for best affect. How can we infect a Bab city when we have no open borders? If were confident spy tech stealing will work in a reasonable time frame, then Im on board for fast-teching CoL and building CHs. The other reasons are not that compelling for doing it ASAP, though it certainly should be part of the eventual plan.
Thebes and Kyoto both have Academies. I think we should build/whip a library in each and then run 2 scientist. It hurts to delay building units in Thebes with its military specialists, but I think we need to make use of the academy. Not sure about Kyoto, but question this for Thebes. Thebes has many excellent tiles to use, and it is near the front. It needs to complete the forge, grow, and produce units right now (still like a double-hill cross to prepare the route to Giza, which is a one-lane hill road easily blocked). Whipping a library will mean fewer citizens, plus we would have to take citizens off of productive tiles to run scientists to make use of the library. Especially if we fast-tech CoL, we are then going to be running 0% science for a while, so a lib will have limited short-term value compare to units. Cant believe its optimal to build one there now.
The problem is we are in such deep deficit that we can't build units everywhere (need to build wealth). CH's should add ~45 gpt, that equates to 45 more hammers going to units instead of covering maintenance. Ignoring the spy/tech aspect, would point out that we wont be producing either units or wealth while building CHs. The short-term loss of wealth is particularly problematic if we fast-tech CoL, and I doubt that we can take Hams big cities without producing many more units.
If Persians attack the deer tile accross water and into a forest, then our losses will be minimum as long as the collateral is split amung many units. Cats can not kill and has CR2 promos mainly. Only the 3 HA will be able to do any real harm. All others will be dead meat. Think this is all probably academic, but Ham has 10 cats, 2 crosses, 2 swords, 3 axes, and 3 immortals, as well as 3 HAs. Are you sure we have enough units to spread the damage thinly?
ESP: I played MadScientists Julian Assange roleplaying game. Once we get some CH's going we can do some shocking tech stealing. As for now, we should split between the two Ai and steal Monarchy from Toku and Vassalage from Hammy. We need to infect the two cities with Hindu for best affect. How can we infect a Bab city when we have no open borders? If were confident spy tech stealing will work in a reasonable time frame, then Im on board for fast-teching CoL and building CHs. The other reasons are not that compelling for doing it ASAP, though it certainly should be part of the eventual plan.
Thebes and Kyoto both have Academies. I think we should build/whip a library in each and then run 2 scientist. It hurts to delay building units in Thebes with its military specialists, but I think we need to make use of the academy. Not sure about Kyoto, but question this for Thebes. Thebes has many excellent tiles to use, and it is near the front. It needs to complete the forge, grow, and produce units right now (still like a double-hill cross to prepare the route to Giza, which is a one-lane hill road easily blocked). Whipping a library will mean fewer citizens, plus we would have to take citizens off of productive tiles to run scientists to make use of the library. Especially if we fast-tech CoL, we are then going to be running 0% science for a while, so a lib will have limited short-term value compare to units. Cant believe its optimal to build one there now.
The problem is we are in such deep deficit that we can't build units everywhere (need to build wealth). CH's should add ~45 gpt, that equates to 45 more hammers going to units instead of covering maintenance. Ignoring the spy/tech aspect, would point out that we wont be producing either units or wealth while building CHs. The short-term loss of wealth is particularly problematic if we fast-tech CoL, and I doubt that we can take Hams big cities without producing many more units.
Htadus
A and L's dad
We can not offord to not do sustainable growth. CoL should have been a priority from the get go, now it is do or die real slow time. I am for not dying real slow. like I said, it is only one unit per turn if we go into strike. But likely will not. Consider this a 5-6 turn of break from building units to recover the economy.
This is
, don't Horse Archers and Knights come with flank attack as special abilities? I think they do! Even if they do not have flanking promo, they will do damage to Cats and Trebs as long as they survive the combat. I think the promo's enhance the damage they cause.As I read this, the plan is to rebuild the economy before attacking Hammy in the west? Also, the AP vote may have been to force peace with Hattie? Thinking we need to be prepared for Cyrus to remain at war?
If we are going to wait to attack Hammy until we have some War Elephants and Horse Archers, we can trade him Gems for 9 gpt.
We can also get 50 Gold from Toku if we are willing to give up Metal Casting.
Htadus
A and L's dad
leif, the reason for flanking promotion is that the flanking damage is done only when the mounted unit retreat. To retreat against a WE or a Pike, knight will need flanking promotion to be able to retreat. Also if they do not have movement points left, they wont retreat and no retreat=no flanking damage.
I will mainly build WE and they do well with flanking promotion. One or two HA's are good for clean up work.
I will mainly build WE and they do well with flanking promotion. One or two HA's are good for clean up work.
I pulled the game up and checked the Civilopedia and it said the special ability of Horse Archers was 20% chance of retreat and flanking damage to Cats and Trebs if the unit wins or retreats. It says roughly the same for Knights, but I cannot remember the % chance of retreat.
“CoL should have been a priority from the get go” Seriously question this. Reason we have the stack at Pat and are about to rule Egypt and about to have the advantage of Hat’s excellent cities is because we maximally built/whipped units and wealth, not CHs, in our limited number of cities. We now have the gold in our treasury to tech CoL and we can still build CHs, including in Egypt, which is really the only place where we need them badly (spy/tech excluded – wish you would give some more details on how and how fast this works). Moreover, not sure the same logic doesn’t apply now regarding taking Ham’s cities, especially since we should soon have the other option of building HE for gold. After taking Bab cities, we would be in position to start catching up quickly in tech by switching to Rep and Caste and running multiple GP farms.
“10 cats will do about 40 rounds of collateral. Our cats will suffer no collateral. Only HA and to an extent the immortals are the danger, but they do not have flanking. So the damage is going to be minimal to cats. So if we have 40 non seige units the collateral will be minimum. I have yet to add up all we have but I am guesing that there are about 30 or more units there.” Not convinced you’re correct on this, but let’s assume you are: Suspect the AI would know this too, so Cyrus doesn’t attack the deer/forest stack. Do you think he would advance onto the grass tile west of Pat to be slaughtered or would he not stay safely in Bab territory? So, perhaps we shouldn't show him our entire stack (and don’t think we should create the supermedic until we need it -- among other reasons because suspect the AI will illogically know about it and plan accordingly).
“How can we infect a Bab city when we have no open borders?Just like Toku, he will ask for open borders.” And why would we expect him to ask for OB any time soon when we are his worst enemy and were at war with him just ten turns ago?
“He can have his naval superiority and i hope he build more naval units.” You don’t think there is a need to cut the road to Opis or to worry about units unloaded along our coast?
‘Also, the AP vote may have been to force peace with Hattie?” Believe the resolution specified Cyrus. Hope I wouldn’t have failed to defy it otherwise.
“10 cats will do about 40 rounds of collateral. Our cats will suffer no collateral. Only HA and to an extent the immortals are the danger, but they do not have flanking. So the damage is going to be minimal to cats. So if we have 40 non seige units the collateral will be minimum. I have yet to add up all we have but I am guesing that there are about 30 or more units there.” Not convinced you’re correct on this, but let’s assume you are: Suspect the AI would know this too, so Cyrus doesn’t attack the deer/forest stack. Do you think he would advance onto the grass tile west of Pat to be slaughtered or would he not stay safely in Bab territory? So, perhaps we shouldn't show him our entire stack (and don’t think we should create the supermedic until we need it -- among other reasons because suspect the AI will illogically know about it and plan accordingly).
“How can we infect a Bab city when we have no open borders?Just like Toku, he will ask for open borders.” And why would we expect him to ask for OB any time soon when we are his worst enemy and were at war with him just ten turns ago?
“He can have his naval superiority and i hope he build more naval units.” You don’t think there is a need to cut the road to Opis or to worry about units unloaded along our coast?
‘Also, the AP vote may have been to force peace with Hattie?” Believe the resolution specified Cyrus. Hope I wouldn’t have failed to defy it otherwise.
missed that. Never heard of this referred to as a bug before.
Tested it with Undecideds map.
Trade routes with cities on the same landmass brings +1gpt, trade routes with cities on an island brings +2gpt.
Last AP peace resolution, all but us voted yes, so I'm pretty much sure this one will pass too (never heard of an AI defying..
). If the resolution passes and we have units on the deer (or the hill, or the grass), Cyrus will have one free shot on the IBT, without us having any chance to retaliate. Do we want this? 
Having to defy a resolution will hurt some of our best cities (Kyoto, Thebes and Pi-Ra), so we'll have a hard time whipping courthouses, libraries and running scientists.
Agree with CP in waiting with CoL.
I would take Alex and Giza (if possible) before next vote leaving Hatze without full membership. We could take a short ceasefire after a vote, but before next turn, if needed, or is that cheating?
Agree with trying to steal techs from Toku, remember to infect Kagoshima with Hinduism first.
Our power rating is about the same as Hammus, and look at our power.
We'll not be able to run him over on his homeland with the units we have now.
Let's do a surprise attack on his island cities: build 4-5 galleys, load them with trebs, xbows and pikes.
We have enough units left on the mainland to meet any counter attacks.
Maybe the next resolution will be (again) to stop the war against Hammu, giving us more time in Egypt.
There is one problem with only taking some of Hammus (or any AIs) cities, we may run into the AP resolution that assigns a city back to the full member.
After the war(s) it's time for economy/tech recovery but I don't see this coming in the next 10 turns.
It's going to be a long game...........
Htadus
A and L's dad
Sorry leif, I meant to say if the mounted unit survive the battle, not just retreat. The opportunity to survive is based on the defending unit, hence the limited collateral damage potential.
This game is a no tech trade game. Pointy stick is the main trade option, espionage is the next. We can catch up but need the infrastructure to do so. In the mean time we need to steal a tech or two. Pointy stick or spy's does not matter.
Meditation will cost us 124 bulbs and need 178 esp to steal from toku (251 from Satsuma)
Based on that, we can assume 674 points to steal Monarchy. With 50% discount for 5 turn stationary spy, we need 337 points to steal from Toku.
We need to plan to steal Feud from Hats. Satsu has a higher cost due to distance and possibly no roads and OB. It will cost a minimum of 787 points.
These numbers continiously change as we increase our Espi points to that AI. The cost go down.
BTW CP, I am not blaming you for CoL, instead the entire team for not adopting to the game and specifically myself since I saw where we were heading.
EDIT: xpost with Z. I do like the island capture option if all of our cities get trade routes with those two cities. Good point about Gaza but we can we afford to leave Illinois? I suppose we can leave a spear and a xbow behind to MP while going after Gaza.
I disagree about delaying CoL, but I am in the minority who want it badly. So what the heck. IF we can go backwards this much, why not wait another 10 or 20 turns. This is actually not new for me, I used to play like this. Along time ago.
Mad Professor
Deity
We'll not be able to run him over on his homeland with the units we have now.
Let's do a surprise attack on his island cities: build 4-5 galleys, load them with trebs, xbows and pikes.
We have enough units left on the mainland to meet any counter attacks.
Hopefully...
There was a fairly significant stack that retreated to Babylon and it will have only got bigger recently...
Like z3's idea of taking the island cities. Thinking that if we are at war at the time of the next vote, the vote might be to end the war instead of giving back the cities?
In order to prepare to do this, do not see how getting CoL's quickly can benefit us as we will need units for our goal to get those cities as well as taking Alex and Giza. We should time CoL's completion with the peace that will come after that and then do as Htadus suggests?
Since we are quite sure that peace will come with Cyrus, do not see the need to allow him to engage our forces in the west as they will be needed for the operation versus the island cities, unless there is something we want from that that I am unaware of?
There seems to be many things that need to be done all at once, so we need to prioritize and accomplish the most important things first.
In order to prepare to do this, do not see how getting CoL's quickly can benefit us as we will need units for our goal to get those cities as well as taking Alex and Giza. We should time CoL's completion with the peace that will come after that and then do as Htadus suggests?
Since we are quite sure that peace will come with Cyrus, do not see the need to allow him to engage our forces in the west as they will be needed for the operation versus the island cities, unless there is something we want from that that I am unaware of?
There seems to be many things that need to be done all at once, so we need to prioritize and accomplish the most important things first.
Yes - you have to be at peace with the AI for that vote to come up!
I was thinking long term, you need to have more culture on the city plot than the former owner to be safe, and that takes a long time!
Take a look at Tokyo, we've had it for some time, still it's 74% Japanese.
Well then, no more peace for us!
Especially when we are warmongering and, due to necessity of unit production, do not build culture buildings.I was thinking long term, you need to have more culture on the city plot than the former owner to be safe, and that takes a long time!
Take a look at Tokyo, we've had it for some time, still it's 74% Japanese.
not 
You're so right.
Htadus
A and L's dad
OK recaliberating system. Falling in and on line.
Science to 0%
Hammy: Move entire stack to go after Alexandria. Then go after Gaza. Follow up with Illinois.
West: Move the axes and gang into the city unless we want to sacrifice them for some reason. Others stay put. If no peace with Persia and they move in. Stop game and ask for advise. Else wait till we can DOW Babs. Launch an armada to capture island cities and wait for his stack to come attacking us. Once the war is declared, no AP peace for us. Not using the GG untill we are warring.
Cites: Finish buildings and continue building wealth. Patal build boats. All others who are not building wealth, that should be zero, build WE. After market, Capital build WE. Same for the former Egiptian city, after the Forge only units.
ESP: All points to Toku for now.
I will not DoW Babs untilll we have 5 boats. So Patal may need to be whipped. I will also chop the deer forest.
That is it right.
Will wait for comments AND go no go from the team.
Science to 0%
Hammy: Move entire stack to go after Alexandria. Then go after Gaza. Follow up with Illinois.
West: Move the axes and gang into the city unless we want to sacrifice them for some reason. Others stay put. If no peace with Persia and they move in. Stop game and ask for advise. Else wait till we can DOW Babs. Launch an armada to capture island cities and wait for his stack to come attacking us. Once the war is declared, no AP peace for us. Not using the GG untill we are warring.
Cites: Finish buildings and continue building wealth. Patal build boats. All others who are not building wealth, that should be zero, build WE. After market, Capital build WE. Same for the former Egiptian city, after the Forge only units.
ESP: All points to Toku for now.
I will not DoW Babs untilll we have 5 boats. So Patal may need to be whipped. I will also chop the deer forest.
That is it right.
Will wait for comments AND go no go from the team.
"This is just an excuse for us as a team not adopting to the conditions of the game. We noticed very early on that this game is not teching like a normal emperor. We should have been deficit reserching CoL." Doubt we could have done this and still gone to war long and effectively. We now have the gold in our treasury to tech CoL and we can still build CHs, including in Egypt, which is really the only place where we need them badly (spy/tech excluded – wish you would give some more details on how and how fast this works Are you asking about tech stealing? Yes, and appreciate the details just provided. Makes sense to consider stealing a tech from Japan. What about switching to OR to build missionaries not only for Kag but for Egyptian cities as well?). Moreover, not sure the same logic doesn’t apply now regarding taking Ham’s cities, especially since we should soon have the other option of building HE for gold. Are you talking about building HE in differeant cities for failed gold? Yes. Can we afford to delay HE one available? If the next AP vote is indeed for peace in our prospective war against Ham, then we could certainly afford to delay. Otherwise, we'll just have to see when we get there and should be teching prudently to CoL so we can start building CHs in Egypt once it becomes clear we will need no more units there, and that time should be soon.After taking Bab cities, we would be in position to start catching up quickly in tech by switching to Rep and Caste and running multiple GP farms. I am glad that you are confident that we can take Bab's cities. Not at all confident that we can do it quick and easily, but we are going to have to take them to win.
If we are going to abandon the possibility that the resoution won't pass or be defied (not advocating this), can we get gold for peace?
Like to get Hawk's input before proceeding.
If we are going to abandon the possibility that the resoution won't pass or be defied (not advocating this), can we get gold for peace?
Like to get Hawk's input before proceeding.
Mad Professor
Deity
You mean Hatty
Might be OK to see what's in Illinois - I seem to remember there wasn't much. If you don't have many losses taking Alexandria, you might be able to afford to split off some units to take Illinois while you're marching to Gaza.Good. No sense putting units in the firing line this turn. In the unlikely event that the AP doesn't end the war with Persia this turn I think we should entice him into our area and kill a bunch of units until he'll give us some gold for peace (instead of the other way around) then get peace ASAP after that. Persia is for another time.
OK. Build as many units as possible, using only enough cities building wealth to keep us in the black. Cities without barracks if any should build wealth so that unit builds come out of barracks?
This is not exactly what I meant. Sorry.
What I meant was that we should not make peace until the AP enforces it. If we are at war during the vote, the vote should be about forcing peace, not taking a city away from us. Not sure we can afford to be labeled a villan of the world by defying the peace vote. That will depend upon the situation, no?
And please do not fall into line if you disagree, only if you think the arguments support the conclusion.
edit -
a triple cross post. 
Htadus
A and L's dad
This is not exactly what I meant. Sorry.Sorry for lack of clarification. I meant after we declare on babs we should not take AP peace since all this does is giving Babs breaks.
What I meant was that we should not make peace until the AP enforces it. If we are at war during the vote, the vote should be about forcing peace, not taking a city away from us. Not sure we can afford to be labeled a villan of the world by defying the peace vote. That will depend upon the situation, no?We also can not offord to DoWing Hammy and get forced to peace often either.
And please do not fall into line if you disagree, only if you think the arguments support the conclusion.
edit -
I too would like to hear what The Hawk and undecided have to say. Will wait 24 hrs prior to playing. Monday night in upstate NY.
