Culture SP Tree

One of the big problems with Piety, it's faith and culture, rather than focusing on either one. By splitting the tree into two, one for Culture and the other for Faith, it would immediately fix the fact that it's not focused enough and allow both religious and cultural powerhouses able to pick full trees that fit them.

I may tackle the changes that would need to be made to the Piety tree soon, but right now, this is just about an idea for a tree for culture.

Note that I call this tree "Patronage" but would not expect the current Patronage tree to be removed, but, rather, renamed. Patronage screams out to be a cultural SP tree, both by the name and the picture used to represent it, and that is why I would imagine the CS tree simply be renamed.

Piety would probably ideally be moved to the ancient era, but would certainly be removed from conflict with Rationalism. There's really no reason they shouldn't exist side by side, if someone wants to focus on religion early and science after that is set. Patronage (as in this idea for it) would be made a Renaissance Era SP tree that would be mutually exclusive with Rationalism. Choose your artists or your scientists!

As for the tree itself, I imagine something like this:

.A PH AD
. \ /
. B
. |
. R

Patronage opener - -33% cost of buying culture producing buildings and +15% production on those buildings. Unique buildings gain +1 culture.

A = Absolutism - +20% happiness from buildings and wonders in cities with at least 10 population.

PH = Public Holiday - Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder

AD = Art Deco - +1 culture for every building in a city after the fifth. +1 culture from every 5 population after researching Architecture.

B = Baroque – 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies

R = Romanticism – All specialists produce +1 culture and the empire enters a golden age.

Finisher – all future social policies cost 10% less culture and immediately gain one Freedom policy (you may not choose any policies from Freedom until you are in the industrial era, if this opens it)

The opener should be nice in an era where you gain two new cultural buildings, and it will affect the UB's, which gain 1 culture, which is a small boost but could easily make a small difference throughout the game.

Absolutism is the happiness policy. It works only with large cities because getting extra happiness from going wide and building a Colosseum and Theater in every city seems a bit unfair with this SP. Tall empires can also benefit from happiness wonders.

Art Deco provides a culture bonus for well developed cities, particularly tall ones, as are found in most culture games.

Baroque is just like Mandate of Heaven now, and it works well with Absolutism which comes before it and the excess happiness that normally exists in tall culture games.

Romanticism is the cultural answer to Secularism.

The finisher provides a free SP in exchange for now coming later, but still reduces the costs of the most expensive SP's, the last ones. You wouldn't get to choose which policy you gain, unless of course Freedom wasn't open when you finish the tree (and so would always provide the opener) or you only had one left.

Thoughts?

Adding an idea of a replacement for the culture policies in Piety.

Again, I think ideally Piety and Rationalism wouldn't be mutually exclusive anymore with this, instead making the culture and science policy trees mutually exclusive and Piety being available with everything.

Mandate of Heaven - All Great People cost 10% less great person points and faith and each increase in price is 15% less

Reformation - Gain 1 happiness for every 5 faith generated and gain 1 happiness toward a golden age for every 10 faith generated.

Religious Tolerance - Every minor religion in a city provides 2 faith, culture, and science. Great Shrines give +3 gold and +3 culture.

Finisher - Gain one extra belief. The belief can already be taken but cannot be a part of your religion. Also provides a 20% decrease in purchasing units or buildings with faith.

The New Mandate of Heaven would give bonuses to any empire, but the bonus would obviously be delayed for anyone not founding a religion. For anyone looking to found a religion, the decrease on costs of GPr's would be invaluable.

Reformation is a happiness booster, yay! It also increases the rate at which you will gain golden ages, over the happiness given, in exchange for not providing a major happiness boost (a city with shrine and temple should make 5 faith with Piety, without any religion giving extra).

Religious Tolerance gives a number of bonuses if you manage religion well, after getting another religion spread to your territory or by taking an enemy city with a different religion by force. It also gains part of the old finisher.

The new finisher keeps the faith discount but also gives an extra belief if you founded a religion. It is slightly different from the Byzantine UA, and a bit stronger, borrowing from the current Patronage opener being half as strong as Greece's UA. Of course, like that situation, Byzantium would be allowed a second bonus belief.

Rooftrellen said:

Note that I call this tree "Patronage" but would not expect the current Patronage tree to be removed, but, rather, renamed. Patronage screams out to be a cultural SP tree, both by the name and the picture used to represent it, and that is why I would imagine the CS tree simply be renamed.

Click to expand...

What would be the "new" name of the CS tree?

Rooftrellen said:

Patronage opener - -33% cost of buying culture producing buildings and +15% production on those buildings. Unique buildings gain +1 culture.

Click to expand...

"Unique buildings" are those specific to a particular civ, right? Meaning that Paper Maker and Floating Gardens, for example, would get +1 cpt with this opener?

Rooftrellen said:

A = Absolutism - +20% happiness from buildings and wonders in cities with at least 10 population.

PH = Public Holiday - Culture increased by 33% in all cities which have built a World Wonder

AD = Art Deco - +1 culture for every building in a city after the fifth. +1 culture from every 5 population after researching Architecture.

B = Baroque – 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Social Policies

R = Romanticism – All specialists produce +1 culture and the empire enters a golden age.

Finisher – all future social policies cost 10% less culture and immediately gain one Freedom policy (you may not choose any policies from Freedom until you are in the industrial era, if this opens it)

Click to expand...

I want my Social Policy that gives me +1 happiness for (cheaply produced) cultural buildings.


Also, what changes would you make to the "new" Piety tree to emphasize that it is the "Faith" tree?

My idea for changing the Piety tree is in the 2nd post. Since the tree is already set up, I just worked within the framework of the existing tree. Again, ideally, this wouldn't need to be set against Rationalism, just because there's no reason for it, and the culture tree is more logical to be set against it (as it has until this point, it's just that Piety has been the culture tree).

Unique buildings are those that belong to a specific civ, yes. Civs without a UB wouldn't get that part of the bonus, of course, but would get the cost reduction of buying and production bonus of building culture buildings.

For the CS tree, I've been looking for a word, actually. Diplomacy seems to broad, because it is diplomacy with very small independent groups, but "Diplomacy" is the best thing that has come to mind so far...

I know this post will be controversial, but I want it said anyway.

Piety and Rationalism ARE diametrically opposed.

The Piety tree (especially your take on it) is all about Faith, the belief in a force higher than yourself, one that you cannot prove the existence of, whether through your own physical senses, or through methodical experiments. To have belief in a higher power, it is a requirement that you shed the sense of doubt necessary to reason against the existence of the higher power.

Rationalism, on the other hand, is the rejection of ideas without evidence and the shunning of unfalsifiable claims. To be a rationalist, you must forgo any desire to believe in a higher power whose existence cannot be verified. If the gods cannot be measured through any known means, then they are of no consequence.

HOWEVER. That is not to say that Piety precludes intellectualism. Indeed, the Piety tree currently has policies that enforce intermingling of ideas, alongside those that promote bigotry and closed-mindedness. Mandate of Heaven and Theocracy are policies symptomatic of a single, overpowering culture that shuns differences of lifestyle and opinion, while Reformation and Religious Tolerance encourage free thought and acceptance of others. In fact, it would seem that a pious civilization is equally likely to be either intellectual or anti-intellectual.

The same can be extended to Rationalism. Most of us are already familiar with the arguments that Rationalism stands for enlightenment and educated masses. In fact, Civ V seems to assert (rather unfairly) that Rationalism is a sign of a superior civilization. It fails to explore the darker side of Rationalism. For example, Animal Testing is a policy made possible only through Rationalism; if souls cannot be proven to exist, and it can be scientifically concluded that animals are intellectually inferior to humans, then there is no reason to afford them the same rights as humans. (I'm not trying to argue against animal testing, it's allowed for great advances in medicine; I'm just pointing out that it takes a significant degree of emotional detachment to administer potentially lethal drugs to animals for the good of mankind.)

I will even go as far to say that Rationalism is NOT inextricably intertwined with intellectualism. It's possible to be a bigoted rationalist, as contradictory as that sounds.

So, Piety and Rationalism sit on two opposite ends of the scale. They need to be supplemented by other policy trees to demonstrate that open-mindedness is not exclusive to either way of life.

I suggest Philosophy serve as the culture tree, and be made to oppose Tradition. It would take some of its policies (if in name only) from Piety and Rationalism: Religious Tolerance, Reformation, Free Thought, and (Popular) Sovereignty. The policies that fill in the blanks left in the Piety and Rationalism trees should be named such that filled out trees of either, without Philosophy to supplement them, lead to worlds of religious intolerance and progress for progress' sake, respectively.

Rooftrellen said:

For the CS tree, I've been looking for a word, actually. Diplomacy seems to broad, because it is diplomacy with very small independent groups, but "Diplomacy" is the best thing that has come to mind so far...

Click to expand...

How about "Alliance"?