Improving Exploration Tree

With all due respect, I think Exploration pretty much sucks. Not that the benefits are bad necessarily, but the opportunity cost is so high when we only have around 20 policy points throughout the entire game. What are some of the improvements you think would need to happen with the tree for it to fit into a game? Even on archipelago I don't think it's a very high priority tree, and people often just get the opener for movement or louvre.

Personally I think there should be benefits for land based play as well, perhaps a policy that allows for trade routes between inland cities along the same river.

Yeah I only went down Exploration once with Emperor/France because I wanted to see what's the hoo-ha with those hidden sites. I'm yet to play Indonesia/Polynesia/Carthage seriously and see what's the benefit because I'd say those are the only nations it's worth taking. Venice could benefit from all that more gold I suppose.

Or, this is more suited for a slower game perhaps

Perhaps try:

- Increasing the ratio of great works of writing in hidden sites from 20(?)% to something like 50-66%.
- A policy that increases the yields of sea resources, and/or the coastal-related buildings (harbor/lighthouses, maybe removing gold upkeep?)
- Buffing great admirals (since they are fairly weak/extremely situational in their usefulness as they are)
- Granting sea trade routes (the finisher) culture/science/something?

Also removing the duo-requisites for the 2nd tier of policies in the tree - i.e. Maritime Infrastructure AND Naval Tradition are both currently required to unlock either Merchant Navy and Navigation school. Streamlining the pre-reqs would make things a lot less painful in sinking those initial policy points into the tree.

ThorHammerz said:

Perhaps try:

- Increasing the ratio of great works of writing in hidden sites from 20(?)% to something like 50-66%.
- A policy that increases the yields of sea resources, and/or the coastal-related buildings (harbor/lighthouses, maybe removing gold upkeep?)
- Buffing great admirals (since they are fairly weak/extremely situational in their usefulness as they are)
- Granting sea trade routes (the finisher) culture/science/something?

Also removing the duo-requisites for the 2nd tier of policies in the tree - i.e. Maritime Infrastructure AND Naval Tradition are both currently required to unlock either Merchant Navy and Navigation school. Streamlining the pre-reqs would make things a lot less painful in sinking those initial policy points into the tree.

Click to expand...

1. Ultimately unimportant because there would be hardly any room for all those writings. Also, increasing the probability of something happening is an arbitrary thing, to say the least. Perhaps earning points towards a Golden Age would be more useful?

2. Already exists in a way, doesn't it?

3. Great Admirals are all kinds of useless in my games so anything that makes them useful, yeah why not

4. Tourism modifier for trade routes increases if sea based route is used?

I agree with the last bit

Free trade route?

Carthage is actually well worth playing with a naval based map. It makes an interesting game.

You want to play a large sized map with small continents - continents.

Open with Tradition (for faster border expansion) then complete Liberty and then play through with Exploration. Free harbors provide 1 happiness from Liberty city connection and 1 happiness from the building, so on a large map a new city only produces 1 unhappiness which means you can plant many cities.

But going back to improving Exploration I think they could give an extra trade route in there somewhere and maybe unlock some new hidden water resources only accessible to this policy tree.

I would also double the science bonus from naval trade routes somewhere.

I would suggest mineral sands for a bonus coastal shore tiles, abalone (New water luxury) and maybe coffee as a unique land resource. I would add maybe 1 science to every coastal resource tile and atolls.

Hm...interesting.

What if we buffed the hidden antiquity sites as well? So, for example, landmarks made from them generate +2 culture, and science is gained when it's turned into a great work.

In general I don't invest in Exploration often because:


One change I would make is to combine Maritime Infrastructure, Naval Tradition and part of Merchant Navy into one policy that gives "+1 happiness, +1 production and +1 gold for each Harbor, Seaport or Lighthouse". The resulting policy is fairly strong, but is dependent on having a coastal city in the first place, which is usually less productive than a land bound city. Making the +3 hammers from Maritime Infrastructure conditional on naval buildings also makes this a little weaker than just "Maritime Infrastructure with sometimes additional gold and happiness". This change also opens up 1.5 slots for different policies if we're still working with the 5 policies per tree limit so it wouldn't just end here.

Second change I would probably make would be to make the opener be "+1 Sight for all units", or else if we don't mind making Exploration overpowered, "+1 Sight for all units and +1 Move for all Naval units and Explorers". I would like to see the latter but the former seems a little more sane. Either change would at least make opening Exploration useful for more than just naval units (it would also make it easier to find hidden antiquity sites, but I assure you that's just a nice side effect).

I really have no idea what the heck to do with Great Admirals. Could always just add more movement or a higher combat bonus but that still doesn't address the low utility of GAs =\

I like AnonymousSpeed's suggestion of making artifacts from hidden antiquity sites do more than what a normal artifact would do. A small boost to science or culture when the artifact is picked up would be interesting and be a good incentive to go and get them up... before someone else does!

Honestly all that Exploration really needs is just a novel means to add some science so its just not a default choice to take Rationalism. I do think a 100% bonus to science from trade routes could be a start as well as some science from ocean tiles.
An extra trade routes is also needed somewhere. If you are going to have a wide maritime empire you really do need an extra trade route so new cities can catch up quickly without having to sacrifice external trade routes.
They could even add a unique maritime themed World Wonder or National Wonder deep in the tree to increase the incentive to fill out the tree but at this point there is zero likelihood that there will be any further patches for civ 5

@Redaxe: Hmm... I had an idea for a replacement wonder that I thought would fit Exploration better, though it probably needs some adjustments It's similar to the idea that you presented though.

Orcadas Base
Unlocked upon opening Exploration, requires Navigation.
City must be built on or next to Tundra or Snow.

1 Great Scientist Point
+2 science and +2 gold for all Tundra and Snow tiles worked by the city. Trade routes to this city generate +2 science for the trade route owner and +1 science for the city owner (this includes internal trade routes from the city owner).

I mainly picked Orcadas Base since, after the discovery and settling of the New World, expeditions into the far north or south seemed to be the most pure/romanticized representation of exploration. For the Orcadas Base wonder, you would need to find a suitable area to the north or south where you can settle to maximize the tiles you could work, and also be able to send caravans/cargo ships to it since the city won't grow well on its own. It's also a way to make Tundra and Snow tiles useful, similar to what Petra does for Desert tiles. Hopefully it incentives players to go out to the extreme poles to find a good spot for the Orcadas Base!

It might be more useful if it makes those tiles provide, say...+1 food. Given how late this comes it's hardly broken, especially since Tundra will only have the output of a grassland and ice the output of a tundra.

I've been thinking about this for some time, and I largely agree with you guys that exploration should incorporate some science bonuses. Every tree apart from aesthetics gives at least a little science boost. Apart from that I'm still not sure what the gist of the exploration tree is about. I feel it has to do with expanding and perhaps settling in faraway locations, sort of like an extension to liberty with a bit of sea warfare.

1. Marine biology: improved sea luxuries provide +4 science.
2. Finisher: hidden antiquity sites and naval units ignore ZOC.
3. Treasure Fleets: sea trade routes provide +4 of their normal yield. (food, hammers, gold, science)
4. Combine Merchant Navy and Naval tradition: +1 happiness, +1 gold for lighthouse harbor seaport. +4 production, culture for city with EIC.

@ThorHammerz Explanation for 2. Finisher reveals hidden antiquity sites, and all your naval units ignore ZOC. It doesn't mean units have to be on them. Meant as a significant boost to naval warfare to combine with the movement bonus.

Sessy said:

I've been thinking about this for some time, and I largely agree with you guys that exploration should incorporate some science bonuses. Every tree apart from aesthetics gives at least a little science boost. Apart from that I'm still not sure what the gist of the exploration tree is about. I feel it has to do with expanding and perhaps settling in faraway locations, sort of like an extension to liberty with a bit of sea warfare.

1. Marine biology: improved sea luxuries provide +4 science.
2. Finisher: hidden antiquity sites and naval units ignore ZOC.
3. Treasure Fleets: sea trade routes provide +4 of their normal yield. (food, hammers, gold, science)
4. Combine Merchant Navy and Naval tradition: +1 happiness, +1 gold for lighthouse harbor seaport. +4 production, culture for city with EIC.

Click to expand...

Could you elaborate a bit on what #2 does for hidden antiquities? Does that mean units standing on them ignore ZOC?

imo exploration should have some focus, not being just a bunch of various sea-related bonuses
it should address some problem, it can be the mid-lategame expansion

suggested effects:
opener: +1 moves/sight to scouts, civilians, ships;
scientific society: 2 free Explorers (a scout that can enter rival territory w no open borders), science and culture bonus depending on % of the map tiles uncovered (20% max in renaissance, 10 in industrial, 5 in modern onwards)
colonialism: -50% cost of purchasing tiles with gold, new cities start with a granary and a workshop
civilizing mission: missionaries add tourism to backwards civs (10 * [num our techs they dont know] * [num followers converted])
expeditionary force: all units can "change port" like an admiral (seaport is reqired in both cities)
ambition: extended length of trade routes (both naval and land), +1 trade routes
finisher: see hidden antiquity sites, +50% to archaeologist production

admiral needs some better ability than heal ships, maybe add xp to nearby units like GG in civ4?

ps: commerce should improve land trade routes to make them combarable to sea trade routes

Exploration does need a science boost somehow. It also needs to tie in to a victory condition better. Space exploration (i.e. Apollo Program) might be a good tie-in. Maybe early/reduced/free cost or access to Apollo Program? I know, it would probably have to be more than that.

I am not sure a science bonus is what is needed. Exploration does not need to be another rationalism tree. In the real world, exploration was about finding new ressources, establishing distant trade routes and about planting oversea cities. The main trouble is that late cities are usually worthless and the exploration tree should include policies that would offset this.
Policies could thus be :
- +1 trade route
- a fixed growth bonus per city (+2 or +3 food maybe) to speed up the growth of smaller cities
- a +2 happiness bonus per land mass with a city on it

Another way of improving the exploration tree could be about giving movement bonuses to land units. Removing the terrain movement modifiers for non-mounted units could be a solution and warmongers would be thinking twice before going to rationalism.

maybe rationalism should be nerfed

Some good ideas around. I've never picked it, and see no reason to even consider it now. In some ways, it should be one that is rarely picked, but when picked, has huge benefits:

Opener: +1 sight for all units
Colonialism: All new cities build on a continent other than the capital gets all ancient and classical era buildings for free.
Imperialism: Internal trade routes from your capital to cities on other continents provide double resources.
Maritime infrastructure: +1 food/gold/production for each lighthouse/harbor/seaport. Build them at double speed.
Naval tradition: +1 happy per lighthouse/harbor/seaport. Free GAdmiral/+2 moves for GA.
Merchant Navy: +4 gold for all naval trade routes. +4prod/culture in East India city
Finisher: see hidden antiquity sights

Essentially the opener gives a potential military boost. Colonialism/Imperialism will let you get overseas cities working possibly better than your homeland. And the other side of the tree is geared to make coastal cities strong. Some of this might be too strong, but can be toned down. Nothing gives science, but there's a lot that can help your cities grow, with a couple little military benefits as well. Too strong on a water-based map, but the finisher is weaker than other trees (if only because of the useless faith purchases).

Ideas to improve the GA
+2 moves to all ships/embarked units on adjacent tiles
can always move as fast as the fastest unit in the group
+1 sight to all adjacent (water) units
ships with a GA can move after attacking
ships with a GA gain 50% more XP
ships with a GA can heal outside friendly territory