pre-TNESIV: Let The Bodies Hit The Four

Glorious. I'll have to go back to uni library and get those Invader Dynasties books again.

So this isn't dead? Excellent.

Luckymoose said:

Good, the first of several such projects that apparently I was lying about in site feedback. But you know, Thy, they'll probably still force you to run this in IOT.

Click to expand...

Thy can run this anywhere he wants. It's his game and his choice on how and where he wants to run it.

Religious Summaries

Christianity - A pseudo-monotheistic faith based around the divinity of Jesus Christ as the prophesied Messiah and the Trinitarian nature of God.


Islam - A monotheistic faith based around the unity of Allah and the sacredness of the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed.


Judaism - An ancient monotheistic faith based around the Talmudic Law and the writings of the ancient Israelite prophets.

Hinduism - A collection of polytheistic dharmic traditions built around the cults of several supreme beings and deities, often interrelated with local deities, the most important of whom are Vishnu, Krishna, and Shiva.

Buddhism - A pseudo-atheistic dharmic tradition believing in various forms of detachment and asceticism as the path to enlightenment and escape from the cycle of reincarnation.


Viracochan Polytheism - A variety of Andean polytheistic faiths centered on deities descending from a creator god (the Viracocha). Also features the presence of spiritual power in infinite numbers of natural objects, the huacas.

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I should note that religious minorities aren't exactly shown on the religion map, only state religions.

Obviously still in...though as what, nobody knows : 0

Unfortunately, the season of college applications has fallen upon me, so I don't think that I will be able to, in good faith, give sufficient effort to the regional Magyar power. That being said, I would much prefer a state of relatively lesser importance in the international stage where I can shift my focus to internal politics and culture-building. I hope you understand that this in no way means that I will be lessening the quality of my writing-to-be in favor of just focusing less on the NES .

Specifically, I'd like to talk a bit about what on earth is Zhapham, how Geneva plays into European politics (specifically if it's too much for me to handle), or if you'd be willing to playerize one of the ?Gorkha? states for me.

Until then, I'm withdrawing myself from the Magyars, then making a decision once I get some more information and can have a clearer view on the world.

Zhapham is basically a Tibeto-Burman tribal kingdom that originally migrated from Dali during the Turkish invasions about 500 years prior. They are a young kingdom (akin to contemporary Bhutan or Nepal in the OTL 16th-17th centuries), and are in the midst of a spate of fortress monastery building to anchor the authority of the current ruling warlord over a subject population of Nagas and others. They probably coalesced in response to Nevayani expansionism and trade.

Geneva is studiously neutral and everyone tends to guarantee its independence because it's a famous center of learning in Europe (maybe the most famous). You can play Nepalis if you have a good idea for them.

I'm still in as nihon-teikoku, though things are set to get busy for me pretty soon. I'll figure something else, this looks too fun!

Had you not committed terrible sins, Allah would not have punished you with the Khanishah's hordes.

Copyright Lord of Elves© 2015

Still in, of course.

A preview for later today:



In which Thlayli explains the changes he has made to Southeast Asia, (the replacement of the Muslim-trader influence of the Late Middle Ages with a Buddhist revival, among other things), why Southeast Asia is such a major challenge to worldbuild for, (predicting ethnogenesis and migration is hard) and geopolitical and religious overviews of the major states, as well as important regional issues like the ancient tripartite rivalry between Bengal, Sumatra, and China for control over Malacca that Andalusia has now found itself peripherally enmeshed in.

Then so that all my players don't switch to Asia, next time we'll talk about the burning of Pope Stephen XI for heresy, and its many consequences on the European situation.

Waves of Grass Lapping at the Sea

The points of divergence for Southeast Asia begin in the 11th century, where the Seljuk (ITTL, Oghuz and Karakhanid) invasions fail to conquer the heartland of the Middle East thanks to a better organized and sustained Ghaznavid dynasty which secures full control over Persia. The dueling Fatimid and Abbasid caliphates would struggle on until the Crusader and Mongolian invasions brought them down, but that is another story. More energetic Ghaznavid invasions (and overall more successful leaders) ultimately captured India, rather than simply plundering it as in OTL, while the Karakhanid Empire overran the majority of northern and western China, bringing Islam to North Asia in much greater numbers. (The Ghaznavids also created the precedent for a united Indo-Persian empire that the Kanishahs would later copy.)

But just as Islam is much stronger in Northeast Asia than in OTL (Islam has even come to some Samoyeds by 1600,) it is much weaker in Southeast Asia. This is largely because of Sri Nevayana. In OTL, the Muslim conquests of India roughly coincided with the terminal decline of Buddhism as a state-backed faith in India outside of Sri Lanka. The sustained decline in Indian Buddhism in TTL was arrested with the prophecies of the Nevayani gurus, whose teachings promoted a sustained and aggressive insurgency against the invader Turco-Arabs in Bengal. (The amount of Nevayani borrowings from Islam, however, is quite surprising, to the point where Muhammad is even one of their saintly figures.)

After around a century of war putting down Buddhist insurgencies and warring against Hindu states, the exhausted Ghaznavid Sultanate ultimately fractured and collapsed into civil war before the successors were swept away by the Mongols. The Mongols themselves would in time conquer India on the road to building their world empire, but for the time being, the Buddhist theocracy was able to expand.

The end result of the Nevayani resurgence was that Buddhist missionaries from India continued to be active in Indonesia, rather than dwindling throughout the 12th-14th centuries and being replaced with Arab influence. (Arab traders are still present in Indonesia, but Muslim Arabs are a smaller minority class in Indonesian societies, akin to Chinese in Malaysia today.) The Nevayani were incapable of converting more than a fraction of Sumatran society (mostly in Aceh) to their sect, with Java and southern Sumatra continuing to adhere to a more traditionalist form of Theravada, though the two coexist relatively peacefully compared to many other religious traditions in the world. (Here's looking at you, Europe.)

Although Theravada was not displaced as the main popular faith in Southeast Asia, the political influence of monks increased in Sumatra, to the point where a rival theocracy emerged in opposition to both expansionist Javanese kingdoms and the Nevayani. Unlike the Nevayani, who are strictly ruled by the reincarnation of the Great Guru, the Jayajati monks simply play a role in selecting and approving the virtuous king from the sons of the previous king, who is anointed chakravartin. Sri Jayajati and Sri Nevayana both adhere to the mandala style of political governance, whereby smaller, autonomously governing units are tributaries to the center.

Meanwhile, the Nan Song have dominated the South China Sea. North China has been lost (culturally and politically) for over five hundred years, and its total reclamation is often seen as more of a pipe dream. The Liao, followed by the Karakhanids, then the Mongols, and finally the Muslim Zhun dynasty of the Dzungarian people, have dominated the Northern Chinese plain in succession, annihilating any attempt to advance into Inner Mongolia with extreme prejudice. In return, Song discipline and naval technology have smashed any steppe armies attempting crossings of the Yangtze. As such, the lands north of the Yangtze have traded hands every few generations, with neither side capable of landing a knockout blow while both waste countless amounts of blood and treasure.

This situation caused the Song and later the Nan Song dynasties to re-conceptualize the lands north of the Yangtze, first as semi-permanently lost to barbarians, and secondly as having always been mostly worthless barbarian lands to begin with. It was not that reclaiming the north was no longer a worthy goal, but simply not a strictly necessary one given the inherent wickedness of those lands and its people.

In recent years, Sinfengian Buddhism sprung onto the scene in China as a vastly different reinterpretation of Buddhism from a Confucian moral standpoint, a radical atheist ethical statement that extends the Buddhist principles of withdrawal and moderation to withdrawal from superstition and supernatural belief. Sinfengianism and the religious fanaticism and wars that it birthed would ultimately result in a revolution resulting in the replacement of Confucianism as the state religion by the 1500's, and the rapid suppression of encroaching foreign religions, including Nevayana, Zen, Islam and Christianity.

So, the end result of this is that Chinese dynasties in this timeline are vastly more maritime-oriented, and have been since the 12th or 13th century. The Viets, who had broken free from the T'ang collapse and were just starting to stretch their muscles against the recalcitrant Champans, were the first to fall under Song rule in the late 1300's. They were repeatedly invaded and forced to pay tribute, the Viet princes then being integrated into the tributary system. What this resulted in, ironically, was a reprieve for the beleaguered Champan people, who were able to flee south into the jungles and eventually re-establish a state centered on the Mekong Delta, the unrepentantly Shaivite Simharajya, or Lion Kingdom. (In OTL the Champans converted from Hinduism to Islam, but this never occurred in this world.) (I changed this just recently.)

A variety of powerful Nan Song treasure fleets and admirals subjected the Taiwanese, northern Tagalog, and Bornean potentates to their control over the course of the 1400's and 1500's, and sailed further afield in the mid 1500's, charting the Aleut Peninsula and finally arriving in the Pacific Northwest. In recent years the Tlingit and Hawaiian tribes have, with varying degrees of misapprehension, also entered into the tributary relationship.

The South China Sea has truly become a Song lake, with a canny system of ports, vassal tributaries, trading posts, and allied nations creating a web of mercantile dominance that has shut out Indian rivals. This situation has only been disturbed with the unexpected arrival of the empire-building al-Andalus. Long fearful and resentful of Chinese dominion, the tolerant Jayajati graciously extended their hospitality to the Andalusians with a treaty of alliance, officially sanctioning Mozarabic Christianity (to which most of the local Arab minority promptly converted to gain favor). The Andalusians obliged by toppling Jayajati rivals in Java and placing their own preferred vassals in place, not to mention securing a firm grip on the global spice production themselves. (This is only contested by a tiny Remonstrant free-port that is perpetually harassed.)

With the wary Nan Song closing their ports to the Andalusian interlopers, the situation is now a wary standoff, with the Jayajati-Andalusian alliance looking to nip at the edges of Song dominance, and the Nevayani, religious rivals to EVERYONE on the playing field, playing the possible role of spoiler, though they have their own wars with the villainous Dutch and Ertukids, and don't care much for anyone involved.

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I'm still working on the background for that state in Thailand/Siam, because I'm trying to figure out if the Khmer -> Ayutthaya -> Tai expansion chain would occur as it did in OTL, and if it gets disrupted, how to disrupt it. Likely I will still have some sort of migrants from the north, but I need to do a little more migratory analysis before I can make a strict judgment call on that, since I need to decide what the culture looks like before I know what language or dialect to use/permute to name things. Hard stuff.

The state in Sulu is a fairly reliable Malay maharaja that's powerful enough to retain his independence in most matters, unlike the smaller surrounding states. There's also a massive lot to be said about the trans-Pacific carry trade but I'm not an economist or anything.

Also posted elsewhere, but.

Ein veste Burch is iuse Gott; ne göoe Wiehr un Waffen.

I am eager to see this start

Yeah, it's pretty likely that I'm going to be going with Zhapham.

So here's something I've been working on regarding that to show that I likely won't mysteriously die and leave this alone.




I'm still working on developing a believable TB language with lots of juicy loanwords (Tai/Sinitic/Assamese/Turkish) so that'll come soon, with a Nevayana mantra to showcase it to boot.

Nice.

[lurker]my body is ready[/lurker]

I've been considering how to remake the stats based on the sage advice of a few wise men. Here's a new proposal, with a full ruleset to come.

State Name
Leader: Ruler (age) / Player
Government:
Economy:
Military:
Culture:
Prestige: [Individual events w/prestige totals] [Total Prestige]

i am still keen as the Frankish Empire and looking forward to it (though i'll have to dig up all the stuff i wrote)

TNES IV Ruleset - Preliminary


There are four main categories that describe your nation: Government, Economy, Military, and Culture. As a leader in the early modern world, you are able to interact with all of these statistics to varying levels. Your successes and failures as seen by the modern world are collected in the Prestige column, which can also be considered similar to reputation. The choices you make will have consequences on the type of state you build and what it can accomplish.

Government involves your leadership. In this NES, 'you' are considered to be the ruler of your country. As the ruler, you cannot manage every little thing, especially in a world where your empire may stretch hundreds or thousands of leagues, and across the ocean itself. Whether you are born or elected to rule, you must rule through the tools which you have been given. But you are given the ability to select those tools.

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Government Type is a basic descriptor of your government, like Theocratic Confederacy, or Thalassocratic Oligarchy. You can change it in two ways. The first is a revolution, which will involve some type of bloody civil war against elements of your own government. The second is slowly making incremental changes until one day your people wake up in a very different sort of society. The second can often backslide into the first.

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Centralization describes how much executive control your ruler holds over the various branches of government. 0 reflects practical anarchy, and 10 reflects absolute despotism. There are advantages, and disadvantages to higher or lower values. Higher centralization allows you to exert more control over your Leaders and their plans (see below). Your military and economy are more likely to behave the way you order them to. However, your Elite Confidence is much more volatile, and your Ethnic/Religious Unrest will most likely rise. Low Centralization produces the opposite effect; less Unrest and (typically) happier Elites, but a lack of fine control over Leaders. The choice is usually yours to make.

Attempting to increase Centralization if your Elite Confidence is low may cause a civil war.

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Leaders are the immensely powerful individuals who form your inner circle and shape the destiny of your nation. Leaders represent the very top of your chain of command, equivalent to a Field Marshal or Vizier, not a simple general or functionary. The most common Leaders will fall into the categories of Commanders, Statesmen, and Natural Philosophers, but you can create your own categories with my approval. As a ruler, you will name these leaders, and you can make up whatever title and backstory you like for them.

You are allowed to select as many leaders as you like. However, selecting too many may cause poisonous rivalries and internal power struggles to develop within your nation, and choosing too few may cause your empire to become overstretched, or worse, concentrate an unhealthy amount of power in the hands of a rival to your rule. You can make your ruler (you) a Leader, but this comes with risks and consequences. (Each leader will certainly have subordinates who are powerful and influential in their own right, but this isn't something I plan on tracking in the stats.)

What do leaders do? They lead. For example, you can task leaders with organizing military operations, building alliances, accomplishing major domestic projects and reforms, or quelling potentially rebellious elites or minorities. Your leaders can also do things like write books and produce works of art, if they are so inclined. Leaders will automatically be famous figures, and all of the regional governments will know about them and their actions. (Unless you make them secret.)

As a guideline, a small state should have at least one military and one non-military leader. A larger empire should have at least one military leader for each of its major armies, and leaders to manage diplomacy and domestic affairs. You can create new Leaders and dismiss old ones whenever you want, but dismissing a successful leader could hurt your Elite Confidence. Your Leaders, of course, are partially NPC's. Their loyalty to you is mediated by Elite Confidence, and your ability to control them is mediated by your Centralization.

Your leaders can also carry out multiple roles if necessary; a statesman can become a general or a general can leave the military to become a central planner. That's all up to you. You can also pick one word to describe each leader's personality.

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Elite Confidence shows the opinion of your ruling class as to how they think you might be doing. It is on a 0-10 scale, 0 representing open revolt and 10 representing fawning adoration. Elites like nothing more than Prestige, so gaining it is a good way to maintain their approval. You do not precisely need the consent of your elites to be successful, but if you disregard them at every turn you may eventually be facing rebellion or assassination attempt, and a disgruntled elite is often more of a threat than a rebellious minority. If your Elite Confidence falls low enough, your Leaders could even turn on you.

Feel free to murder all of your elites in a blind rage and take full control of the state, but this will probably cause a Centralization spike and also launch you into a full blown civil war. So, actually, I'd advise against that under normal circumstances. But hey, it's your country.

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Economy refers to the commercial output of your nation, insofar as it enters your hands. The economy is a difficult thing to easily control, even in our modern era. In spite of that, you do have certain tools at your disposal: Taxation and tariff policies, colonial endeavors, the outright extortion and intimidation of your neighbors...you know, typical Keynesian stuff. Your income and expenses are both itemized, and naturally you'll want to grow the former, which can be accomplished in a variety of creative ways that will probably end up collapsing your nation if you try them. Just kidding. Sort of.

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Income represents the sources of regular cash that flow into your treasury on an annual basis.

Trade income is based primarily on taxes assessed on foreign goods entering your market, or tariffs, but it can also include tolls, harbor fees, and any other number of creatively-named levies. Your trade income can be increased by increasing tariffs, though this runs the risk of starting a tariff war with another nation that might have severely negative effects, or by increasing the volume of trade passing through your ports. I won't tell you how to do the second one, but I'm sure if you think creatively and do some research you'll figure it out. For many nations, this will be your primary source of income, and also your most vulnerable.

Taxation income represents the duty that the state extracts from citizens just for being alive. This is presumably supposed to help them in some way, though we all know you probably aren't going to do that. Taxation income is somewhat interdependent with your Centralization level, as a less centralized state will have more tax revenues getting siphoned away by local and regional elites rather than making its way to you. You can increase your taxation income temporarily by passing war taxes or any other sort of extraordinary duty. Though this is almost guaranteed to make everyone somewhat unhappy, they will become increasingly exhausted and desperate if you try and sustain the war taxes for multiple turns.

Resource income represents the monies your state earns from controlling a monopoly over some special type of resource. Many states will make a pittance on the salt duty, but other lucky empires will have access to furs, pepper, cocoa, teak, sugar, gold and gemstone mines, and so on. Controlling the distribution and sale of these goods (or seizing control of them from someone else) can make or break a nation's imperial ambitions. Keep in mind that resource income can be highly volatile and subject to market shocks.

Tribute income is fairly straightforward, it's forwarded straight from vassals who owe their continued existence to your good graces.

Other income is anything that doesn't fit into these categories.

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Expenses are unavoidable, my friends. Rulers rule by munificent magnificence, and that doesn't come cheaply.

Military expenses are often the largest expenditure that the state will face by far, especially in times of war. In peacetime, the partial disbanding of military units and closure of fortresses seriously reduces the cost of the military, but this disappears as soon as the full-strength field army musters for battle. (In modern, permanently standing armies in centralized states, this trend may begin to disappear.) Military expenses spike during war, reflecting the cost of recruitment, resupply, and salaries for your soldiers.

Administrative expenses are the costs of maintaining your bureaucracy. Surveyors, priests, slaves, artists, gardeners, even those poor saps who roll the beer barrels all the way up from the cellar to the kitchens and then open the bunghole with a hammer, all of them need to be paid. Except the slaves, if you have them, but even they need to be fed. Royal living expenses and dignities have costs associated with them, and these costs cannot be minimized without risk to the Prestige of the ruling dynasty. One easy way to reduce Administrative expenses is to lower Centralization, which cuts the size of the bureaucracy by farming out various duties to local magnates. This does, of course, have its own attendant consequences. (See above). Perhaps there are other ways, as well, if you can find them.

Other - Interest, paying tribute, etc. Often you will see interest or expenses from borrowed loans or state-backed bonds and annuities here, the size of which will also be tracked in your treasury.

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Treasury - This often represents a literal physical pile of shiny things sitting in a mint somewhere, though more realistically it refers to a sum on a balance sheet somewhere in one of your bureaucrats' desks. Unfortunately, you don't have direct control over what happens to your treasury; if you start a war, and costs get out of control, it might be drained pretty quickly. Your treasury can also go into the negative with loans and other obligations. Loan amounts will be shown here as well. While the size of your treasury has little bearing on how your economy may be doing, accumulating wealth is a good way to also accumulate Prestige, as well as to serve as a nest egg when you have to use your military on extended adventures, lower taxes or complete a vast religious or civic project.