[MOD] Fall from Heaven II

seamus75 said:
Hello-

I hate to sound like an "answer for eveything" kinda guy but your good advice is hard to implement when your research is so far behind as to make you the stone age joke of the game. I'm currently fighting a war with my t1 warriors vs. their mercenaries and axemen as my research is capped at 30% & I've yet to discover any of the necessary techs. All of your suggestions are good - I would relish destroying the OO Holy city just to keep them from profiting off my cities, but alas the city is guarded with archers and adepts (units I've yet to discover).

Things my start looking up as I have FINALLY researched the trade tech & switched civics - hopefully I'll get some meat in my coffers so I can trim the fat off of their cities.

PS - my point in all this is not to vent or complain about the sorry state of my game. My point is to say that the Grigori may need some balancing to make them comparable with the other civs.

See ya,
Seamus

<Shrug> Maybe you have to be more manipulative? Get other civs to help you. If your down, that usually means they dont see you as a compeditor, and if you've good relations with someone, they might help you out. 2 On one is always eazier.

-QES
 
@seasmus. We know that the Agnostic civs need a different approach but that must not mean they are unbalanced. For example the Grigory are particulary strong with Great Persons (their Obelisk replacement increases GPP and their Adventurers Guild as well). Furthermore (to speak of the problem mentioned by you) religions have a much smaller chance to spread to Cities of Agnostic civs than they have to spread to other civs. So you are - at least a bit - protected against beeing misused by religious civs.

Other than that it might of course also be that you started in a bad position compared to the other games you played with FfH0.14 before, and therefor the Gigori might seems particulary difficult to play for you. So my advice would be to start another game with a different Civ and after completing that one to return to the grigory. Maybe you even try to play "agnostic" with the other civ to get a feeling for the advantages of the grigory when you play them later on.

Btw. Usually one has tier 2 units before the religion makes a difference so i assume the starting position is to blame.
 
QES said:
Ya, farm yeilds. {EDIT: And windmills, and the like, but all income(hammers/gold/food) based. What about resources and strategy improvements?} i have the image of the worker going back to the tile and clocking some hours. Plus if its possible, it could look different as it upgrades.

{EDIT: Or Better Workshops that provide bonuses to wood buildings (a increase in speed for buliding those types of structures, Or Mines for dwarves that add race specific benifits like more food (but a regular mine must be built first). There are a lot of options outside of income generation. IF its possible to program. I Like the idea of Graveyards for any player that dabbles in necromancy. Maybe these improvements KILL the tile, but randomly spawn undead units that belong to the host nation. Upgrade the graveyards to generate better and better units. Graveyard - Cematary - Haunted Mansion - Desecrated battlefield. Graveyards could produce skelitons, Cematarys more often, Haunted Mansion some sourt of vampiric awesomeness, and Desecrated battlefield could produce something nasty, or something less nasty quite often.}

On the random unit creation you could create a "ritual city improvement" that would give a promotion to a unit (or multiple units) and if one (or multiple units) are on the tile, graveyard or other, then it triggers a unit creation (and the promotion on the units should disappear.) Of course this gets into micromanagement so it shouldn't be something for vanilla 3str skeletons.
 
I am currently playing the Doviello who start out evil. My neighbor, the Khazad, founded the Runes. I adopted the religion and became neutral. Then I founded the Order, converted and became a good civ. Pretty cool.

Now, I remember a post by Kael where I THINK he said an evil civ can become neutral through religious conversion and a good civ can become a neutral by the same means. But going from one extreme to the other was not possible. Did I misunderstand him or did I do something the MOD is not intended to do? Maybe he meant you could not go from Ashen Veil to the Order and vica versa without purging one or the other religion?

Also, I have captured a Giant Spider. Any suggestions on how to best use him? I see from the Pedia he would make a great recon unit w/ a ton of promotions. However I am concerned with his attack and defensive strength, pretty weak. The other option of course is to build a Spider Cage and produce silk. As one advances along the tech tree does one come across a technology where spider silk is useful? Some type of armor maybe?

Thanks.
 
hawkeye72 said:
On the random unit creation you could create a "ritual city improvement" that would give a promotion to a unit (or multiple units) and if one (or multiple units) are on the tile, graveyard or other, then it triggers a unit creation (and the promotion on the units should disappear.) Of course this gets into micromanagement so it shouldn't be something for vanilla 3str skeletons.

Yeah, Something Cool like "Skelitel Legion" Str 5 Nasty Vs Melee, perhaps Fear, dunno, dont care, just want the "Feel" most of all.

I'd like all civilizations to be in "less control" of the development of the world, and for the world to do its "own thing" and civs via and compete in that ever changing situation.
 
Hay kael, love your mod :worship: :worship:

I was playing it last night at like 5 o'clock am... The graphics and the stories for the leaders were very prevestional. I also love how the Religion plays a big role in the game.

I would like to make a suggestion for the spells. :hmm: I was Playing as the Elf Thessa and desided to destroy the overlord holy city by means of tsunami. I did so and later though, " Oh, it would be cool if i could but that land back." So i was thinking about a spell in the Earth sphere that would rises land from the seas (which could be brought up to hill sized if used 2 or 3 times :eek: ).

Hope you consider. Love your mod! :Love:
 
Broken Hawk said:
I am currently playing the Doviello who start out evil. My neighbor, the Khazad, founded the Runes. I adopted the religion and became neutral. Then I founded the Order, converted and became a good civ. Pretty cool.

Now, I remember a post by Kael where I THINK he said an evil civ can become neutral through religious conversion and a good civ can become a neutral by the same means. But going from one extreme to the other was not possible. Did I misunderstand him or did I do something the MOD is not intended to do? Maybe he meant you could not go from Ashen Veil to the Order and vica versa without purging one or the other religion?

Also, I have captured a Giant Spider. Any suggestions on how to best use him? I see from the Pedia he would make a great recon unit w/ a ton of promotions. However I am concerned with his attack and defensive strength, pretty weak. The other option of course is to build a Spider Cage and produce silk. As one advances along the tech tree does one come across a technology where spider silk is useful? Some type of armor maybe?

Thanks.

Giant Spider Silk as a Specific Strategic resource, not merely Silk(luxury) is a fairly intriguing idea. It would reward those who explore early on, later in the game, if the only sources of that "Giant Spider Silk" Are from pens. Some Sweet Armor upgrades, perhaps a special building who gifted promotions. A step up from Iron, but not quite Mithril. - And NOT a metal.

{EDIT: It'd be pretty sweet, so sweet, i bet kael's already thunk it up. If there were more "capturable" things. Eventually, capturing resources (renewable and not) and bringing them back home, becomes just as viable a strategy as expansion.}

-QES
 
O i just remembered... i was looking at the resorces and saw a mana node called the metamagic node and creation node. I was wondering what spell where they for or where they for something else in the future?
 
Hey Kael, your mod is honestly the best mod, for any game, I have ever played...ever IMHO.:goodjob:
I been lurking for quite awhile here, but I've been playing your mod for awhile, I really love what you and the team has done with Hippus (best hero:)), the Grigori,Bannor, and Elohim...actually I really like all of them now that I'm listing them..

Just wanted to tell the FFH Team amazing job and keep up the amazingly awsomely amazing work.;) :goodjob::crazyeye:
 
For all us Tower of Mastery builders

Here is a list (as complete as the civopedia is at this point) of how to get manas without digging them out of the ground:
Every Palace and every Religious Holy Shrine produces a type of mana

There are three wonders that give mana - Eternal Flame (3 Fire - which no other civ wants in trade cuz they always make it first or have it), Tomb of Sucellus (1 Life), and Soul Forge (1 Death, and it will take a guy from you every now and then)

You can't capture other Palaces, but you can capture the Holy Shrines

One of the rarest ones, hence one to build early, it seems to me, would be Dimension, cuz only the Sheiam get it with their Palace, and it's needed to build the Nexus

Here they are in alpha - your comments are welcome

Key:

P - Palace
S - Religious Holy Shrine
W - Wonder
They all produce one Mana except for the Eternal Flame which produces three

Body Mana -
P - Calabim

Chaos Mana -
P - Doviello
S - Cult of Dragon (Wyrmhold)

Creation Mana -
Have no idea what that is ...

Death Mana -
W - Soul Forge

Dimension Mana -
P - Sheiam

Earth Mana -
P - Khazad
S - Runes of Kilmorph (Tablets of Bambur)

Enchantment Mana -
P - Amurite
P - Luchuirp

Entropy Mana -
P - Infernal
S - Ashen Veil (Stigmata on the Unborn)

Fire Mana -
P - Clan of Embers
P - Malakim
W - Eternal Flame

Law Mana -
P - Bannor
S - The Order (Code of Junil)

Life Mana -
P - Mercurian
W - Tomb of Sucellus

Mind Mana -
P - Belseraph

Nature Mana -
P - Kuriotates
P - Ljosalfar
S - Fellowship of Leaves (Song of Autumn)

Spirit Mana -
P - Elohim

Water Mana -
P - Lanun
S - The Necronomicon (Octopus Overlords)
 
QES said:
Giant Spider Silk as a Specific Strategic resource, not merely Silk(luxury) is a fairly intriguing idea. It would reward those who explore early on, later in the game, if the only sources of that "Giant Spider Silk" Are from pens. Some Sweet Armor upgrades, perhaps a special building who gifted promotions. A step up from Iron, but not quite Mithril. - And NOT a metal.

{EDIT: It'd be pretty sweet, so sweet, i bet kael's already thunk it up. If there were more "capturable" things. Eventually, capturing resources (renewable and not) and bringing them back home, becomes just as viable a strategy as expansion.}

-QES

I like the idea & it wouldn't be vulnerable to the rust spell later in the game. One comment though is that I don't think there has been a game where I haven't captured multiples of these spiders. Good early game strength unit that becomes significantly less useful by mid-game which is when I pen it up for production, happiness and trade goods.

... I guess I didn't capture any when I played Lanun on an archipeligo map, but that's just cuz they weren't on my island...
 
QES said:
I was thinking this too. I LOVE the casters. I love them. However, I feel OVER inundated with options. I like variety, so if a spell caster, say an adept->Archmage line has a few spheres at his/her disposal. thats awesome. But my casters (tell me if you all have the same thing) tend to have no less than 8-10 spells or abilities maybe half of which are active always, and another half are situation specific. Id rather each individual spell caster be more badmothershutyourmouth and have fewer options. If one required more mana sources to get higher up a tree, it would REALLY open up the vareity, whilst cutting down on inundation. You either A) can have lots of options in the level 1 areas. Or a few mighty Archmage/whatevers roaming around with level 3 powers.

I like the idea of having buildings produce mana BUT - I like it how you already must have a source of that mana (as is oft the case) before you can produce that building. Sort of slows you down. The eternal flame is a great example, Ya gotta have fire before you make fire.

I think there should be National Wonders that come with those "node finding" techs. You get 3. Period. You get 3 of these national wonder types. Each would provide you with 1 of the mana specific. So, you could either build 1 Death, 1 Entropy, and One body. OR 3 body. But, once you have 3 of them, you never get any more.

A last thought on casters. They're too precious for me to use. Because of the way they level (pure genius) I never want them close to the front lines. They sit, im my uberized cities, for defence and I produce large numbers of non-arcane units to handle the baddies. Only at the end of a game did i use them - en masse, and only then because all of my regular units had died, and it was the last city of a civilizations, and i had a bit of genocide on my tounge.

I lost 3 of them to shadows (OOOO A VICIOUS AN CLEVERLY DESIGNED UNIT) and the rest uber buffed a rag tag assortment of regulars, and I still lost 60% to an ubercity. Summons..well...they're cheap...but you cant use em in numbers unless you have numbers already, and they're weak. Unlike FFHI, where mages/casters were overpowered, now they're precious (for buffs and the like) and too fragile to bring forward.

Not sure how to mitigate that. I would like the option (but not the necessity) of having a very small number of very powerful casters. As opposed to a lot of infrequent buffers that get assassinated. An idea - Maybe there is a way to code the game so that once you have your adept you can build a building, this building disapears as SOON as you build it, (so you can build it again) but any Adepts that are in the city in which it is built, at the time it is built, gain a level. Straight up. (Or some amount of exp) You could do this to manually pump your casters. IN this, make adepts either more/very expensive, or limit the number of them. (Id say dont limit people, go with expence) {Edit: OR better yet, make the BUILDING very expensive, pumping manually would be a choice to neglect something else. Still, instead of building 4 adepts and wating for them to climb their archaic social ladder, one could build a single adept and pump the bejesus into/outof him.}

Maybe also only allow adepts to access the spheres that are appropriate to the nodes associated. One could not level an adept in Death, if one did not have Necromancy. (You can make promotions linked to tech right?)

Just itching my brainworms, hope it helps.
-QES

We are reviewing the whole mana/spell relationship for 0.15. Im not sure what we will end up with but I like your ideas.
 
QES said:
I Love FFH2...as we can all tell from my bulk posts.

I would love to see some things that add to the feel of the Mod. Im sure this is for a later addtion or phase, but some ideas are floating and it's best if they land here.

I want to be smaller. I am a control freak, as most civ'ers are, but I want to feel more In the world. I do want to build units, expand the empire, grow cities, and control the aspects of civ that we do. But if one stops to think about it, Everything that happens in Civ is something that A civilzation has done. Even if we include the barbarians.

Id like to feel as though the world were bigger. Not the map, but the scope.
There ought to be things going on in the world that NO civ has any impact on, and that add a bit of randomness (fortune or misfortune) to the mix.

I personally think that my people should be dealt with. Kindly or severely, but a city that has VERY unhappy people ought to either produce barbarian units or turn my units in that city into barbarian units (a costly thought if my units provided happiness, thereby exaserbating the problem.)

Perhaps tectonic shifts might occur. A "rift" (Or a black colored river visual) could form (as a river would) randomly on the map somewhere. Thereby becoming IMPASSIBLE between one side and the other.

Volcanic Explosions would be cool. A peak might turn into (or have a "hole" feature placed on it) a volcano, and the surrounding landscape would suffer.

Famine would be nice to see. Occasionally X Cities (somewhat close together) could suffer from famine, and produce Little to no food from grassland and plains squares. Or other things that decrease food consumption. Food shortages and surpluses are the cornerstone of many fantasy stories, because they alter the normal opperations of mideval worlds. It'd also be good to have a Money-to-food converstion option available like research, wealth and culture. The richer nations could hold off starvation for a while.

STORM would function like famine except it would only affect coastal cities, and instead of little/no food it would be 0 production on water squares, or "bump" the workers off for a while - no boats for a few turns.

I like the idea of More Barbarian units wandering around midgame, and perhaps you've already thought up the idea of More Unique Units like Orthus, but he needs a posse to ride with.

Good things could be things like "Bountiful harvest" The Opposite of famine.

Cities with celebrations of "we love the leader" could provide the opportunty for volunteer forces lest neighbors invade - not the strongest fighters, but volunteers are volunteers.

There should be LOTS...heart be still - of tiles and improvements that would provide the CHANCE of different things occuring.
-Graveyards producing Undead (for other civs or barbarians.)
-Eagles nests producing large eagles (Maybe randomly spawn eagle units that would sit on peaks but have the "valourous quality" in favor of whom ever land they are in.)

It would also be cool that if each time you got a goodie hut, instead of just auto-receival. You had a choice. Not of "what do you want" but more of "what do you tell them". A little text box could come up with a Moral, Intellectual or Military-Might nature. It would provide small amount of information (clue) about the little culture you just found, and you'd pick from the options of "how" to greet them. I think 3 would be good. Your entry could be 1 of MANY variables on how they react. The better they react, the better gift you get. If they dont like you, then perhaps barbarians, or damage to the investigating unit, or disease, or bad promotion, the units death...etc.
The units that exploration/scout units, whome get the "better goodie hut option" could make the text box provide MORE information, thereby getting a better clue as to how to guess. The "first contact box given" for goodie huts could contain information that would reveal if they're partial to alignment, partial or opposed to percentage of research (how much they care about knowledge), or partial to military prowess or not. Each encounter would be unique. The status of your empire, coupled with who investigated the goodie hut, coupled with your decision would deside the outcome.
It would also be great, if goodie huts could appear on the map like barbarian cities. (Nomadic tribes you missed on your first time through)

Anyway. I'd like the impression that I'm sitting on my Iron Throne perilessly, and that I am no God (unless i have God King) and must deal with unimaginable consequences, and unforseeables events. I want the world to be less civ-made and more WORLD-made. It should be a ride.

I wouldn't expect this stuff till the Shadow or Ice phase, but still...it'd be cool.
-QES

Quests are speced for "Ice" and touch on most of these sorts of activites. When you talked about random events you have to be careful. Random negative events often arent fun because the reduce the effect of strategy by increasing randomness. So we are more likely to add events that give the players options (quests) instead of many that just force reactions (although a few of the former are okay too).

There actually is a random event in the mod right now, but it is EXTREMLY rare. It is a our playtest for events. Anyone know what it is?
 
Broken Hawk said:
I am currently playing the Doviello who start out evil. My neighbor, the Khazad, founded the Runes. I adopted the religion and became neutral. Then I founded the Order, converted and became a good civ. Pretty cool.

Now, I remember a post by Kael where I THINK he said an evil civ can become neutral through religious conversion and a good civ can become a neutral by the same means. But going from one extreme to the other was not possible. Did I misunderstand him or did I do something the MOD is not intended to do? Maybe he meant you could not go from Ashen Veil to the Order and vica versa without purging one or the other religion?

No, the AI wont found religions that change its alignment. But you can persuade them to switch if you work at it. And players are free to switch to whatever they would like.

Also, I have captured a Giant Spider. Any suggestions on how to best use him? I see from the Pedia he would make a great recon unit w/ a ton of promotions. However I am concerned with his attack and defensive strength, pretty weak. The other option of course is to build a Spider Cage and produce silk. As one advances along the tech tree does one come across a technology where spider silk is useful? Some type of armor maybe?

Thanks.

No, not at this point.
 
Kael said:
There actually is a random event in the mod right now, but it is EXTREMLY rare. It is a our playtest for events. Anyone know what it is?

Oh, lemme guess, lemme guess!!!

Hum, you can't mean Orthus or Acheron ;)

Spoiler :
Do you mean animals escaping from the carnival? Considering that you mentioned it several times in the changelogs and this thread, I doubt that you think of it as a secret. :)

(I actually cheated a bit and looked in the python code for any events that I might not have stumbled upon, but since I found none, my guess is on the animals escaping)
 
Maybe this has been brought up before but maybe the grigori can get a unique "atheist religion" that give them like scientific boost. it will represent their belied in atheism. maybe?
 
Coca_carola said:
Maybe this has been brought up before but maybe the grigori can get a unique "atheist religion" that give them like scientific boost. it will represent their belied in atheism. maybe?

Interesting... i dont think this would be good. If you dont belive in a religioin then your atheist. I would think to conter this in the civcs instead of having a religion this civ could have a diff favorite civc. THis civc would be the oposite of Theocracy ("theists"). It would grant the civ a increase in scientific reseach and allow them to build buildings espically for that civc (like an iqasition (sp?) hall that would produce happyness (+1 happy for non-state religion?) and unhappyness for religions (+1 for every religion in the city) and stop the spread of religion). Along with this you could build a inqasitioner (not as good as the ones that come from preists) that would eliminate relgions from the city without causing the city to riot.

Kael hope you consider... :)
 
ey maybe that's even better! but i kind of liked the idea with spreading atheism around the world. Like when "atheism" spreads to a foreign city with a religion the previous religion dissapear from the city, but not permanently, the other civ could re-establish religion in that city. Just my thoughts. ;>
 
Coca_carola said:
ey maybe that's even better! but i kind of liked the idea with spreading atheism around the world. Like when "atheism" spreads to a foreign city with a religion the previous religion dissapear from the city, but not permanently, the other civ could re-establish religion in that city. Just my thoughts. ;>

To get that with out adding in an atheist "religion" we would have the inqastioners have the ablity to act as "diciple" units. The equivalint to say the diciple of the leaves, which would spread the fellowship of the leaves, would be the the inqasitioners ability to go to other civs and "convince" the people of the city to give up their religion. After that the civ chooses to could bring the that religion back to the city.
 
Teg_Navanis said:
Oh, lemme guess, lemme guess!!!

Hum, you can't mean Orthus or Acheron ;)

Spoiler :
Do you mean animals escaping from the carnival? Considering that you mentioned it several times in the changelogs and this thread, I doubt that you think of it as a secret. :)

(I actually cheated a bit and looked in the python code for any events that I might not have stumbled upon, but since I found none, my guess is on the animals escaping)

Yes, you're right. And its a secret to most players, but secrets dont last long in the ffh forum. ;)

Most of the secrets that remain unknown are writing details or puzzles that I hide in the game to amuse myself (such as the great engineer source). I dont really expect anyone to ever figure them out.
 
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