The Last of the Civworthy

forget Eurocentrism, "recentism" is a much worse sin in Civilization.
Click to expand...

Is it?
History since 1700 is arguably more important; there are a lot more people alive, and a lot more technological change happens in them, and a lot more scope (thanks to transport and communications improvements) for civilizations to affect each other, particularly to affect those who aren't our immediate neighbors.

As since Civ1, turn times are fewer years as we advance through the ages, precisely because we think that recent eras are more important.
 
Ahriman said:
As since Civ1, turn times are fewer years as we advance through the ages, precisely because we think that recent eras are more important.
Click to expand...
More important... Interesting choice of words. I think it is more because of faster technological advancement and to make more of unit movement. It is also to reflect on the fact that today building a scyscraper can be done in a few years while it used to be something that was an epic work. If we can build faster, travel faster and tech faster, there needs to be a system in civ to reflect that. Slowing the turn timer does just that.

Also I highly doubt that the modern times are even more important. A lot of the foundations for current day law was laid in Rome and Babylon. This is just one example in one area of course, but over the ages everything has had some importance. Saying that the present is more important is just bogus, and I don't think it would hold true in any discussion.
 
Bulgarians should be included in CIVILIZATION 5
I have posted a topic about this already (just 1min ago) but in a different section of the forum. Now, I will give you answers to the questions above.
"My criteria were as follows:

1. Did the Civ in question make major contributions to human society (cultural, religious, architectural, military, etc.)?
2. Was the Civ in question independent for at least part of its history? Are they different enough from previously included Civs?
3. Can a definitive leader, city list and unique unit be chosen for the Civ?
4. As a tie-breaker to weed out possible candidates, I also made the following considerations: How famous is the Civ in the western world? Would western Civ-gamers want to play this civ? Is the civ from an as yet unrepresented region? What would it add to the game?"

1 YES! Cultural: 1) Bulgarian folklore singing: If you have studied music theory, you shall understand terms like 7/8, two-voice songs, etc.
2) The Cyrilic alphabet was created in Bulgaria by Cyril and his brother Methodius who had the full support and protection of the Bulgarian tzar Boris I (who also helped their exiled students later) After that many important Christian books were written in Bulgaria.
3) Architecture - I should create a new post for this, with pictures
4) Military - Bulgaria had a ruler who prepared 10 000 ox carts with siege machines to take over Constantinople /he died before the army was under Constantinople walls/ In the modern age--> the first to use aircrafts to scout an enemy city and throw explosives from an airplane are Bulgarians in the war against Turkey (191)
5/ Bulgaria always had good generals /and tactics/ and I can tell you about many battles which are won vs.enemies who outnumber the Bulgarians

2. We are different enough because Bulgaria combined different ethnical groups since the very beginning but had one rule and one purpose /when being out of a crisis period of course/ and also because our culture is unique. We had times of greatness and unfortunately long periods of submission under a foreign authority. However, Bulgaria still exists today and remembers its ups and downs. Surviving 5 centuries despite the cruel rule of the Ottoman Empire and preserving Christianity and our language IS A MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT.
Another thing before I forget: we saved the Jews during Hitler's dominance in Bulgaria He wanted Bulgaria to deport them to his camps but it didnt happen.

3. Leaders--easy one! Leaders that should be selected depend on what period you have in mind. Early pagan Bulgaria- Khan Asparuh or Khan Krum or Tervel (saved Constantinople from the Arabs)
The great medieval times for us: Simeon I (ask the poor sweet Byzantines during his time about what he did)
The leader who saved Bulgaria from Byzantium at a time when all seemed impossible: Ivan Assen II
Much later, after gaining freedom from Turkey: several options, let me include Alexander Batenberg
I dont want to spam more detalis and do not write any dates here.

4 WESTERN PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW OF OUR LONG (since 680 AD) and let me say INTERESTING HISTORY. WE ARE NOT Famous. This is due to the fact that nowadays we are just nobody in the E U and our economy is nothing compared to top 10 of the world leading states. However, Civilization is not game covering only the period 1900-2050, so our present status is not a reason not to be included in the game
 
Bulgarian said:
Bulgarians should be included in CIVILIZATION 5
I have posted a topic about this already (just 1min ago) but in a different section of the forum. Now, I will give you answers to the questions above.
"My criteria were as follows:

1. Did the Civ in question make major contributions to human society (cultural, religious, architectural, military, etc.)?
2. Was the Civ in question independent for at least part of its history? Are they different enough from previously included Civs?
3. Can a definitive leader, city list and unique unit be chosen for the Civ?
4. As a tie-breaker to weed out possible candidates, I also made the following considerations: How famous is the Civ in the western world? Would western Civ-gamers want to play this civ? Is the civ from an as yet unrepresented region? What would it add to the game?"

1 YES! Cultural: 1) Bulgarian folklore singing: If you have studied music theory, you shall understand terms like 7/8, two-voice songs, etc.
2) The Cyrilic alphabet was created in Bulgaria by Cyril and his brother Methodius who had the full support and protection of the Bulgarian tzar Boris I (who also helped their exiled students later) After that many important Christian books were written in Bulgaria.
3) Architecture - I should create a new post for this, with pictures
4) Military - Bulgaria had a ruler who prepared 10 000 ox carts with siege machines to take over Constantinople /he died before the army was under Constantinople walls/ In the modern age--> the first to use aircrafts to scout an enemy city and throw explosives from an airplane are Bulgarians in the war against Turkey (191)
5/ Bulgaria always had good generals /and tactics/ and I can tell you about many battles which are won vs.enemies who outnumber the Bulgarians

2. We are different enough because Bulgaria combined different ethnical groups since the very beginning but had one rule and one purpose /when being out of a crisis period of course/ and also because our culture is unique. We had times of greatness and unfortunately long periods of submission under a foreign authority. However, Bulgaria still exists today and remembers its ups and downs. Surviving 5 centuries despite the cruel rule of the Ottoman Empire and preserving Christianity and our language IS A MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT.
Another thing before I forget: we saved the Jews during Hitler's dominance in Bulgaria He wanted Bulgaria to deport them to his camps but it didnt happen.

3. Leaders--easy one! Leaders that should be selected depend on what period you have in mind. Early pagan Bulgaria- Khan Asparuh or Khan Krum or Tervel (saved Constantinople from the Arabs)
The great medieval times for us: Simeon I (ask the poor sweet Byzantines during his time about what he did)
The leader who saved Bulgaria from Byzantium at a time when all seemed impossible: Ivan Assen II
Much later, after gaining freedom from Turkey: several options, let me include Alexander Batenberg
I dont want to spam more detalis and do not write any dates here.

4 WESTERN PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW OF OUR LONG (since 680 AD) and let me say INTERESTING HISTORY. WE ARE NOT Famous. This is due to the fact that nowadays we are just nobody in the E U and our economy is nothing compared to top 10 of the world leading states. However, Civilization is not game covering only the period 1900-2050, so our present status is not a reason not to be included in the game
Click to expand...

Not a bit biased, eh?
 
More important... Interesting choice of words. I think it is more because of faster technological advancement and to make more of unit movement. It is also to reflect on the fact that today building a scyscraper can be done in a few years while it used to be something that was an epic work. If we can build faster, travel faster and tech faster, there needs to be a system in civ to reflect that. Slowing the turn timer does just that.
Click to expand...

Uhh, yeah. Faster technological change (and larger economic and population growth and faster communication and transportation) means each year is more important. So, 1700-2000 is more important than 700-1000 or 1500BC-1200BC.

A lot of the foundations for current day law was laid in Rome and Babylon
Click to expand...
Yes... but mostly over a significant period of time. The world has changed more in the last 2 centuries than in any previous 2 centuries on this planet. More people are alive in the 20th century than in all the rest of human history put together.

So I think the focus on powers that were important particularly in the last 300 years (Russia, USA, England/Britain, Germany, Japan, etc.) is no great sin, because of how important the last 300 years are relative to any other time period.
 
I would rather say emotional. After all, what he wrote above is almost fully true but sometimes the Bulgarians get pissed off that their historical achievements are rather unknown.

But in any case, I really think Bulgaria deserves to be included in Civilization 5. The country has all features of a worthy civilization. I say civilization because in the Middle Ages Bulgaria influenced the Orthodox Slavic nations of Europe with its alphabet, literature. Old Bulgarian language was the lingua franca of Eastern Europe.

Politically, Bulgaria was officially recognized by the Byzantine Empire in 681 AD as a sovereign state and the Byzantines paid tribute to Bulgaria. In 927 Bulgaria was officially recognized as an Empire again by Byzantium and in the same year the Bulgarian Patriarchate became the first national church in Europe, completely independent from both Rome and Constantinople.

Militarily the country was a formidable power. In 9th-10th century Bulgaria could send in battle 30,000 cavalrymen "all in iron" (that is a citation by a Byzantine historian). The country achieved series of significant victories against the Byzantine Empire, most notable at Ongal 680 (which led to the formation of Bulgaria); Varbitsa Pass in 811 (when the Byzantine Emperor was slain, one of the worst defeats in Byzantine history); Versinikia in 813 (where the Byzantine were "10 times more" according to their chroniclers); Acheloy in 917 (one of the bloodies battle in the Middle Ages, for which Leo the Deacon said 50 years later "And even now there could be seen piles of bones at Anchialus, where the fleeing army of the Romans was disgracefully slain"); Gates of Trojan in 976 (when Basil II, one of the greatest Byzantine Emperors, barely escaped; the Bulgarians were the only ones to defeat him in battle); Tryavna in 1190 (when the Byzantine imperial insignia were captured) and many others.

The fact that Bulgaria is now a small country should not be an obstacle to be included in such games. After all, though Russia is larger, we gave them the Cyrillic alphabet, the title Tsar, our Patriarchate preceded theirs for 650 years...
 
Come on, the Byzantine Empire isn't in the game, how can you possibly think Bulgaria would be?
 
I think it should be a forum rule that it's a bannable offense to declare your own nation should be in Civ. Only people outside of that nation should be able to recommend it.
 
I'll stick with Australia. ;)
 
What you say makes sense :lol: I understood that even Spain is not going to be included for now... :mad::mad: and I am furious about it.

But still you cannot say that one country is more worthy that another one, so here I have to put forth arguments for why Bulgaria should be included, not to say that since the Byzantine Empire is not included, Bulgaria necessarily doesn't have place here. :mischief:
 
But still you cannot say that one country is more worthy that another one,
Click to expand...

Sure we can. Spain is more worthy than Bulgaria to be included in a game about human history. Russia is more worthy to be included than is Lesotho.

I'll give you this though; Bulgaria is more worthy to be included than New Zealand (my home). We've really never mattered much to anyone (unless you count WW1 and 2 soldiers dying for the Empire - or our repeated trouncing of Aussies at rugby).
 
Spain must be in. I am ANGRY about this. Songhai and not Spain?!
 
Ahriman said:
Sure we can. Spain is more worthy than Bulgaria to be included in a game about human history. Russia is more worthy to be included than is Lesotho.

I'll give you this though; Bulgaria is more worthy to be included than New Zealand (my home). We've really never mattered much to anyone (unless you count WW1 and 2 soldiers dying for the Empire - or our repeated trouncing of Aussies at rugby).
Click to expand...

Mhmmm, by that I meant worthy as a whole, not in a particular inclusion. There is no way to measure "worthyness". But I agree that Spain has more reasons to be included than Bulgaria, though I do not agree that it is more worthy.

Anyway, I will stop with that because it starts to look like spamming... I again protest that Spain is not included and express my hope that it will be the last addition if Bulgaria is impossible :p
 
Ahriman said:
What is it with "Spain" and "must"?

Does "must" mean something different in Spanish?
Click to expand...

Fine. Spain has a RIGHT to be in.

And the only Spanish words I know (rule Britannia) mean very different things to the Spaniards: Manana, Cena, and Dormir.
 
All right, I'm going to have another go.
The Turkic Khaganate, who according to Wikipedia should in fact be called the Göktürks-
Their culture isn't represented by anyone else and in fact they are known to be representatives of their culture (in the same sort of way that Sitting Bull is a representative of "American Indians"), they owned absolutely huge tracts of land and had great political power within the empire and out, they have leaders who could represent them (Kul Tigin or Tonyukuk), they were the first people to invent a Turkic script, they did not fall to foreign religions and became a bastion of Tengriism (the empire's name is actually named after the religion, or the other way around, I'm unsure) and protected persecuted minor religions, despite being fairly nomadic they had many used cities, for a unique building they could have a Khöshöö Tsaidam monument.
I haven't a clue what you could use for a unique unit, some sort of horseman I suppose.

Despite the patriotic Bulgarian people, I think you should consider Bulgaria- it does have a great history and is very well known, you could of course instead include a "cover-all" country of the Balkans, but that would be lazy! While you're at it, perhaps you could reconsider Hungary again, those 36 spots aren't going to fill themselves! :p
 
Bulgarian said:
Bulgarians should be included in CIVILIZATION 5
I have posted a topic about this already (just 1min ago) but in a different section of the forum. Now, I will give you answers to the questions above.
"My criteria were as follows:


4) Military - Bulgaria had a ruler who prepared 10 000 ox carts with siege machines to take over Constantinople /he died before the army was under Constantinople walls/
Click to expand...

Just ask Basil II how that worked out for you...
 
People decided to disagree /some even make fun of/ with my reasons, at least they did it politely, thank you for that
But still , facts are:
1) Yes, Spain is more important than Bulgaria, but I think both should be IN, not out !
2) Some people tend to believe only the things which are famous are good. I have always disagreed with this. Meaning: McDonald's is a famous trademark but it is not good for your health..., Kiribati is not a famous island-state but it is still beautiful and relaxing there, isn't it?
3) The Byzantine Empire is not included - someone said. Yes, that is a minor setback for me. What happens with the Christian Orthodox civs? We do have enough catholics and protestants , and also Buddhism and thge Muslim religion are represented.
Russia only remains in the game , how sad for our religion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Chuma
AI had a nuclear war on the other side of the map and I didn't even know?
Replies
4
Views
430
Chuma
Chuma
R
Few questions about vox populi and more
Replies
1
Views
304
Yerltvachovicic
Yerltvachovicic
ThermobaricPunch
Multiplayer desyncs (loading screen between turns) and weird bugs
Replies
1
Views
853
coolhandluke11
C
Blake00
CivBattleRoyale Season 4 (CBR X4)
Replies
6
Views
1K
Blake00
Blake00
M
Triple win
Replies
0
Views
248
martindo
M
Top Bottom