Middle-Earth:Lord of the Mods (XI)

Yeah i agree Gondorians iso Gondorim. Im agreeing with most of the above acually.
The entire unitlines still sound weird to me, but since im certainly not an expert, dont bother trying to convince me. Im confident in y'all to make thing work

<<Antworks [Ant] is a group of distant friends who share a forum and ocasionally kick mayor ass in Battlefield1942>>

edit: PCH, ice .biq but is the Isengard civ not present or...?

[Ant]Wimp-
Yeah i agree Gondorians iso Gondorim. Im agreeing with most of the above actually.
The entire unitlines still sound weird to me, but since im certainly not an expert, dont bother trying to convince me. Im confident in y'all to make thing work

<<Antworks [Ant] is a group of distant friends who share a forum and occasionally kick mayor ass in Battlefield1942>>

edit: PCH, nice .biq but is the Isengard civ not present or...?

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Ah, forgot them. Will add them.

I scanned LOTR for “Gondorrim\gondorrim and Gondorim\gondorim” the word is not used.
I prefer Gondorians to Gondorim also.

Mrtn, won’t call you that again .
Oh, and I see your point on cavalry. However, they still suck in the Infantry era, it just so happens that’s all you can use. Obviously 3-5 of any unit that can run away will do well, but in LOTM we want cavalry to be expensive. I’m trying to say you can’t make them both crappy and expensive!

Mithadan-
So I'm sticking by Castamir as a founder and big ol' ruler dude as our choice until something better pops up.

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It seems odd to me to have a civil war leader of Gondor as the leader of the Southrons, but again, I'll get over it .
If I had to choose, I would rather it was The Last Conformist suggestion of Herumor who supposedly ruled a part of Harad.

I’ll deal with the rest of Mithadan’s post later, once we hear from RRnut.

EDIT-
The Last Conformist, what about Mordor?

Re: names.

I'm pretty positive "Angmarim" is wrong. Looks like a Hebrew plural ... however, it's probably a typo for "Angmarrim", which would mean "Angmar-people". Sticking this particular ending to a place-name name is to my knowledge unattested, but it's parrallel in formation to Forodwaith, so I think it's probably OK.

I don't have my books with me, but I seem to recall that the Professor used "Gondorian" and "Gondorians" in his own writings, so I thing they're OK. It's widely used by post-JRRT writers in any case.

An adjective for Angmar might, assuming we accept "Angmarrim" as noun, be "Angmarric", on analogy with Rohirric (which'd be the adjective to go with Rohirrim, I guess).

Moriquendi is a pl noun. The corresponding adjective ought to be *moriquenderin, but I don't think that's attested. Simply "Moriquendi" is in any case wrong.

Couple more thoughts:

"Gondorrim" (with two 'r') might be an OK way of saying "Gondor-people". Another possibility might be *Gondorwaith. But as said I prefer Gondorians.

The noun for Harad could be Haradwaith "Harad-people". This is actually attested. It was also (like Forodwaith) used as a geographical term indicating the area these people inhabited - ie, as a synonym to simple Harad. Or call them Southrons, since this gives us Southron as the adj for free.

The adjs for the Noldor and Sindarin technically ought to be Noldorin and Sindarin - dunno if this has been discussed.

I'd suggest Mordorians and Mordorian for Mordor. I could attempt at coining pure Sindarin forms, but we simply don't know how toponyms in -dor were treated for this, or even if there were any such terms.

Ach, TLC, just edit your posts!

Yeah, did I mention that "Angmarim" was something I stumbled accross in a non-canon context? I figgered that because it rhymed with "Haradrim" it might not be sooooo bad, even though it was conjectural (and mispelled, as it turns out). --hang on, "Haradrim" only has one "r"!

I'm cool with Herumor, actually, as the Southron leader. If he actually ruled part of Harad, and not just Umbar, then he'd be a better choice than Castamir. I was going with Castamir simply because I at least knew that his decendants were the Corsairs, and because I knew nothing about what Herumor did. Now that I know, I'm happy to support Herumor. Pretty cool sounding name, too.

I thought Forodwaith referred to the place, not the people there (they were the Lossoth, no?). From that I assumed that -waith was a geographical suffix, like -(d)or or something. Something like "Northern Wastes" was in my mind. But at any rate, it doesn't matter, as we aren't thinking of calling any of our civs -waiths!

Moriquendi is wrong, but how bad does it sound to use it adjectivally? I don't mind bending a few rules here and there. ... Hmm, actuallyl, I think it sounds pretty cool to say "moriquenderin." Let's use that, yeah! (*talking to self: "self, no more getting sloppy on languages." *self responds: "okay, good idea.")

That said, let's use Noldorin and Sindarin as adjectives of those civs, too.

TLC, did you want to try coining Sindarin forms for Mordor-ians just to see what they look like? It would be interesting, if nothing else. Maybe it would be cool enough to use?

the Encyclopedia of Arda on Herumor: One of the many Númenóreans who fell under the shadow of Sauron after Ar-Pharazôn brought the Dark Lord to Númenor. No small number of these people sailed eastward to Middle-earth, and Herumor was among them. With another named Fuinur, he settled among the Haradrim, and became a lord in the lands of the Harad. From this, and his worship of Sauron's darkness, he must have taken taken his name: Herumor means 'lord of the dark'.

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If tEoA is correct I think this could be a cool leader. And use Fuinur as a MGL.

I think it's weird to construct Sindarin endings for Mordor, as it should be in the Black Speech, if it should be, and that isn't possible AFAIK. "Mordorians" is understandable at least, and that's a plus in my book.

EDIT: What do people think of the idea to use Cold-drakes as the second barbarian unit?

Wouldn't that lead to a few too many cold drakes running around? (Oh, unless we set barbarian activity pretty low...)

Hmmm. I dunno yet. I'll sleep on it.

Mithadan: I'll use the 'edit' button the next time, I promise!

Yeah, did I mention that "Angmarim" was something I stumbled accross in a non-canon context? I figgered that because it rhymed with "Haradrim" it might not be sooooo bad, even though it was conjectural (and mispelled, as it turns out). --hang on, "Haradrim" only has one "r"!

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That's not really surprising, is it? Angmar-rim, Harad-rim - totally parallel.

The Lossoth are said to have been a "remnant" of the Forodwaith. Apparently the word hung on as a name of the place after the people disappeared.

mrtn: Black Speech noun and adjective for the Mordorians would no doubt be nice, but won't be forthcoming - we do not even know the Black Speech name for Mordor! It seems likely it involves burz/búrz, like in Lugbúrz "the Black Tower" (lit "Tower Dark"), but we have no idea what "land" might be.

Back to Sindarin, the best I can think for noun ATM would be *Mordorhoth "dark-land horde". Sounds threatening, eh? For adjective, *Mordoren, *Mordorren (ugh, that accentation stinks!) and *Mordorui are possibilities.

Edit: Note that while English translations like "Angmar-people" and "dark-land horde" are singulars, this kind of formations are apparently syntactically treated as plurals in Sindarin, and so having them with pl argeement in diplo texts and the like is as it should.

Whenever I log on once a day, 1 new message. i take off a weekend, 2 new pages!

Hello!

" PCH: I’ll deal with the rest of Mithadan’s post later, once we hear from RRnut."
Wow! I'm needed! if only to make trouble :>}

but really, what is there to comment on?

Oh yeah. Gandalf as leader of southrons. Like it!!! no really, I'd do anything I could to stop that.... :>}

I think that its a coin toss between Castamir and Herumor. Castamir gets heads. my Phillippine peso (worth about 2 cents U.S.) comes up tails so go with Herumor.

A very scientific way of dealing with any problem!

As far as cheetos, hmm. don't really need to add to my waist, but I'll consider. LOL.

Ok now, to units.
As far as a historical debate, I don't want one! could never back it up. all that was just a rationalazation trying to rationalize having two separate unit lines base on standard civ parameters. I was trying to answer the question "what is the difference between a swordsman and a spearman?" The answer I gave was that a spearman was generally ----- make a big point of the generally, as historical proof can be called up to support almost anything ----- less well trained than a swordsman. That was my rationalization behind two unit lines. one represents units that are less well trained and won't do to well against well trained ones except if behind city walls or fortifications. The other group would be well trained military professionals. The use of spear/sword graphics for this would be purely coincedental.
but never mind all that. where are we with units? The main question I have is -- are we going to have 4 basic sets of lines (man, elf, dwarf, and orc oh and hobbit) or are we going to have differentiated units for each of the civs? this was the understanding that I got, but so far debate has centered around mannish base lines. they are fine (except for the unaltered horse line) but are we going to stop there?

Oh yeah, R.E. cavalry. I can think of 3 reasons for its stregnths:
1. decent attack power and defense power.
2. place on tech tree. can simply avoid education, beeline to MT, and then when everybody is in industrial ages and is getting infantry, simply capture the Great Library and get all the way up in tech and have a huge army. the placement of this one one side of the tree makes it huge.
3. 3 moves. ability to rush across territories quickly.

however, it cannot be used alone once infantry come along.

re: gondorrim/ anything else about plurals. Don't know, and won't try to know.

re: unit lines. I was going to start doing orcish civilizations next. want to ask about our conception of Isengard during early ages. IMHO we have 3 options.
1: is concieved of as part of Mordor for early ages. I.E. its evil was contained in the empires of Morgoth and Sauron for the ages before it seperated. Similar to Arnor and Gondor having same units (but slightly weaker) as Numenor through early ages.
2: as part of good mannish civ. Trace its lineage through Saruman as a wizard. gets decent mannish unit through early ages.
3: as part of not so good mannish civ. Trace through Dunlendings.

Personally, I prefer choice 1 both for this and for Angmar. it will give the civ a coherent feel, and is a lot easier to deal with. Also think that it is slightly more realistic, as Isengard never really existed as a civ without being evil.

Oh yes!! and thank you for posting the .bic!

pls no dragons as barbarians. to powerful. my conception of those was probably wolves then giant spiders or the reverse. two things that generally hated and attacked everybody including orcs and other evil dudes.

RRnut

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Mithadan: I'll use the 'edit' button the next time, I promise!

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Thattaboy!

(Er, by the way, how did you go from being a Swede living in Germany to being simply from Kansas? I'm getting all confused by the flux!)

Duh, silly me on the Harardrim/Angmarrim thing. Allthough, double-r's seems a tad redundant, don't it? Wouldn't a language simplify spelling by reducing doubled consonants, unless they served a phonetic purpose (like lengthening or shortening a nearby vowel)? It just looks so wacky to have two r's there.

"Mordhoth" sounds cooler, even if it is less specific. "Mordorren" sounds quite cool, actually (and what the heck?! the double r's look fine here! I'm more confused than I thought!).

Good note on the syntax for Sindarin plurals in our diplomatic texts. Now if only I could figure out how to do that in the editor!

Originally posted by AlcTrv
Whenever I log on once a day, 1 new message. i take off a weekend, 2 new pages!

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Ha ha, I just noticed your designation and location, AlcTrv, very funny. Good to see you have your priorities straight!

Originally posted by RRnut
Wow! I'm needed! if only to make trouble :>}

but really, what is there to comment on?

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Hèhè, that's funny!

Okay, the randomness of RRNut's Filipino peso settles the matter: Herumor will rule the Southrons! Bwa ha ha ha ha!!!

On lines for Angmar and Isengard, I was initially leaning towards solution number three (i.e., through men of darkness like the Dunlendings). But it seems a good idea to try to have some resemblance of the role of Morgoth in the early ages, too. Do you think you could strike some sort of balance between the two? Perhaps "Mordor" would be orc-based, primarily, in the early ages, while "Angmar" and "Isengard" would have more men-of-darkness influence??? Hmmm, I guess it's one thing to (try to) talk about it, another to implement.

I like the wolves and giant spiders idea better than the cold drakes (for the epic game, anyhow -- I want lots of dragons [and boulder-hucking giants, boo hoo embryodead! ] in the scenario). Maybe wolves first, and giant spiders later, assuming we want an increase in 'barbarian' dangerousness.

So, uh, are we decided or not about consolidating a lot of our unit lines into A&D units, or keeping them split? I have trouble seeing the bottom line sometimes...

Originally posted by Mithadan

(Er, by the way, how did you go from being a Swede living in Germany to being simply from Kansas? I'm getting all confused by the flux!)

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I'm actually still a Swede living in Germany. It's just that in honour of April 1st (which began hours ago back in East Asia), we're doing a little identity switch game over in OT; I'm currently using the avatar, location, sigline and so on of puglover. I'll be my usual self once April 1st is over over in Alaska.

Duh, silly me on the Harardrim/Angmarrim thing. Allthough, double-r's seems a tad redundant, don't it? Wouldn't a language simplify spelling by reducing doubled consonants, unless they served a phonetic purpose (like lengthening or shortening a nearby vowel)? It just looks so wacky to have two r's there.

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It serves a purpose - it makes the accent hop around; "Angmarrim" is ang-MAR-rim, "Angmarim" would be ANG-mar-im; the difference is obvious in speech.

"Mordhoth" sounds cooler, even if it is less specific. "Mordorren" sounds quite cool, actually (and what the heck?! the double r's look fine here! I'm more confused than I thought!).

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"Mordhoth" is unfortunately certainly wrong - Mordor breaks down as mor(n)-dor "dark-land". *Mornhoth "Dark Horde" is a possibility.

(I cannot resist pointing out that "Mordhoth" looks ALOT like Swedish mordhot "death threat, threat of murder"!)

For the adj I'd prefer the simple ending -en, since MOR-dor-en sounds much better to my ears than mor-DOR-ren.

Ah, so your converted signature isn't you either, then, eh? Too funny!

Mornhoth doesn't sound too bad, though. I like Mordoren, too, now that you explained to me the accent business.

Still, linguistics gives me a tizzy!

Sig's puglover's, yes. Only the name (duh!), registered date and postcount are my own.

I too rather like the sound of "Mornhoth". And the adj-hoth construction is parallel to Balchoth "Horrible Horde", so it's about as safe as we're getting with unattested forms.

Hello,

Mornhoth sounds nice... dark and evil...

One advantage of wolves and spiders is we have graphics easily available.

RRnut

Agreed all around.

MY BIG BARBARIAN POST

Attacker 1-Wolves
One problem, didn't we make wargs a resource? That might be a complication (for me at least). If we could find something else, it wouldn't hurt. Thinking....


Attacker 2 (Advanced)-Spiders
Ok


Attacker (Naval)
Hmmm.....here's my big question (about barbarians). Are Corsairs part of the Southron culture? If so, remember that in naval line. If not, we could make Corsair the barbarian naval.

Other possibilities-Kraken (generally believed to be what Watcher in the Water was), or maybe "Ice berg" Hey, it took out the last king of arnor!

Yep...that's my idea of a big post

Notes
Personally, Castamir sounds cooler and started them, so my vote

Gondorians for Gondor
Mordor-Can we say Creature of Mordor or something? Mordorian just sounds...weird. Just feels that we should have things that sound a bit better. I understand the issue with some others, but feel it kinda doesn't fit as good here

Isengard-I think dundlendings should fit into the unit structure somehow, because they were in the battles and all, but I think they probably should be evil through and through

AlcTrv: If you're not fine with our li'l coinage "Mornhoth", surely "Mordorians" is the sensible alternative?

I'm fine with Mornhoth, just to annoy you

Had to skim, really didn't read anything other than the word "mordorians". But don't mind me, I could get use to it. It just feels to me like its just trying to be "Gondorians" a little too hard