Into the Renaissance and Islam

I don't think you get VP for holding Jerusalem or Mecca, do you? You just get the bonuses from your religion. As Saladin you're able to take both and ruin the chances of the Turks. You're going to have a really hard time in naval fights so the problem really is those pesky Ottomans blocking your path to Byzantium.

That said, Salah is my favorite in this scenario because of his free courthouses. Happy raiding.

Himmurabi said:

I don't think you get VP for holding Jerusalem or Mecca, do you? You just get the bonuses from your religion. As Saladin you're able to take both and ruin the chances of the Turks. You're going to have a really hard time in naval fights so the problem really is those pesky Ottomans blocking your path to Byzantium.

That said, Salah is my favorite in this scenario because of his free courthouses. Happy raiding.

Click to expand...

It says in the victory conditions (both in the intro and when you click "info" in-game) that you should get 10 VPs/turn for holding the holy city of your religion (Mecca for Saladin, obviously) and/or for Jerusalem (regardless of religion, as it is not the holy city for any of the 3 religions in-game, those are Vatican, Konstantinopel and Mecca).

So technically, you should get 20 VPs/turn, if you hold both, which is pretty easy to achieve with Saladin - at least on lower difficulties - and doesn't seem to work properly, but I'll have to try that out on my own and watch my VP counter early on (which I didn't do when I tried this scenario as Saladin).

Like OP pointed out, you don't get 20vp/t for holding both holy city. just 10.

I believe he was saying you should get 20 for holding both Mecca and Jerusalem (you get 10 per Holy City, and Jerusalem counts as a holy city). But further, I've checked my score turn-to-turn while holding both and never actually seen it increase like it should. And I've probably held both for about 120 turns. So it seems like it's not working at all, unless they somehow evaluate that at the end of the game, which I doubt.

Prophet Skeram said:

I love building up my empire for the first 100-120 turns, then rushing VPs by conquering cities. Yes, it's historically inacurate but having all cities set up would probably result in some frustration aswell.

Click to expand...

It's not about being historically accurate for me, it's about gameplay. What exactly is the difference to the standard game if you go through the same stages? There's superficial stuff like the prebuilt religion and the civ selection, but else? Again, I don't need to have a prebuilt empire, I do think that would be bad. But I do think that certain civs could start with different set-ups and a few basic things could be there already. Again, otherwise I'm just playing the base game capped off at the Industrial Age, not?

Civilization isn't really suited for simulating historical processes in my opinion, there's better strategy games out there who can catch the complexities much better. So I would have liked a more fluid gameplay which gives you clear directions. Like the Mongol Scenario, or the Mesopotamian one (also way too big a map btw.), but not as predetermined as the Korea or Viking one.

GAGA Extrem said:

I played that scenario as Byzantium OCC on emperor and my suggestion is:
(1) Rush navigation.
(2) Build a fleet.
(3) Attack all coastal cities with different religion and raze them.

The biggest exploit in this scenario is probably the fact that you can get conquest points multiple times for each city. My fleet captured a city, enemy land units took it back while it was razed, I conquered it again and got additional victory points.

So try using your fleet as an islamic civ.

Click to expand...

Since the population drops by 1/2 every time the city is taken, this isn't much of an exploit. A population 12 city will become 6 when you take it, 3 when the enemy takes it back, and 1-2 when you take it back again. Victory points for taking a city scale by the population of the city.

Lyoncet said:

I believe he was saying you should get 20 for holding both Mecca and Jerusalem (you get 10 per Holy City, and Jerusalem counts as a holy city). But further, I've checked my score turn-to-turn while holding both and never actually seen it increase like it should. And I've probably held both for about 120 turns. So it seems like it's not working at all, unless they somehow evaluate that at the end of the game, which I doubt.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I meant you should get 20 if you hold both (although that might be a little bit too strong for either Saladin or the Ottomans) - the German version sounds like it would give you 10 for your holy city + 10 for Jerusalem, it might just be oddly worded though and mean "only 10 regardless".

That neither of it works at all is kind of sad and really puts Saladin in a rough spot.

Btw: Just finished with Spain and it was SO - MUCH - FUN ! Absolutely loved the Conquistator and the Tercio, both amazing units, loved getting bonus VPs late game for sending Karavelles and Conquistators to the New World, loved using those "high end tech" Fregattes etc. !

It was just a hell of a lot of fun for me, despite the (obvious) flaws.

Btw: The 500 gold per Conquistator (you can only send 3 and it's Spains UA in this scenario, for those how didn't try it yet) - essentially paying for himself with a little bonus - doesn't hinder the fun either !

I'm sold. I'm trying Spain next. Just as soon as I mop up Constantinople...

Anyone have experiences as the Turks? Seems like they've got the same goals as the Ayubbids but with a much better position & navy.

I'm going to give the Turks a whirl on Deity after I conquer Jerusalem as the English on Monarch. It might be hard to win, but as long as I can get the achievement for warring with Theodora, I'll be happy. Don't expect an update on my progress anytime soon though as I am leaving on a three week holiday and will not take CiV with me. Something to look forward to when I get back

My Turks strat was:
DoW Jerusalem and Mecca on turn 0. Otherwise Saladin will protect them, so if you DoW them you'll take huge diplo hit.
Fortify Swordman in rough terrain and build 2 catapults, easy capture.

Settle a Mediterranean coastal city, build some triremes and send one to west to meet Almohads. Others capture dromons and get xp for them. (Byzantine will DoW you sooner or later. You can bribe Saladin to go war with Byzantine)

As for tech, I beelined astronomy and oxford-ed navigation.
With some Frigates you can easily capture costal cities, and eventually Constantinople. (I settled Black sea coastal city too when I got Navigation)
You'll need some Irons for Frigates.

I took tradition and right side of commerce.

I played this scenario as Austria, thinking that the power to buy citystates would be of great use in a map packed with so many of them.

Started well, got into a scrap with the Dutch before backing off. Saved up, crushed the Dutch, then spent the next hundred turns buying every city state between France and Poland, as well as most of Italy (including the Vatican).

130 turns in I was 3rd in points, but I realised that I needed to get into the Holy War to push my point total over Genghis and Theodora. Over the next twenty five turns, I sent a massive army of Hussars, Landsknechten, and Cannons over to Anatolia. I took two of her cities, suffering great casualties...

Then Martin Luther showed up. Since I'd already married off my third cousin's daughter to the Duke of Wittenburg, Protestantism was founded in Venice. My first thought was "I should burn Venice". My second thought was "Hey, there's no need for violence. I can probably convert them with my missionaries." Five turns later, my entire empire was Protestant. Since I already owned Germany, I was unable to win VPs by conquering Protestant cities. It was at this point that I decided I needed a break, saved, and quit.

So, the situation as it stands is this: 30 turns left, never won a HRE vote, in 3rd position. about 2250 points to Theodora's 2300 and Genghis' 2450. I might still be able to pull this off, but it's gonna be tough.

Oh well, since I'm Protestant now, at least I can earn some points by conquering France.

The main problem I have is that you have to settle your cities. This is fine for civs like the Turks, Austria, Russia, Ect, but stupid for civs like the Celts and byzantium. To make matters worse, alot of the times the leaders settle in totally historically innacurate or simply stupid spots, like spain using its starting settlers to settle in france rather than the huge space it already has, or the celts settling dublin where york should be.

Played this scenario as Saladin and absolutely loved it. To deal with the poor positioning with Byzantium, I popped up a city where Corinth is located, as she didn't seem to expand too heavily. This allowed me the luxury of having a foothold near her weaker cities West of Constantinople.

Otherwise I settled along the northern coast of Africa, only sending settlers in-land if there were extreme amounts of luxury resources. In one instance, I settled a city in the immediate vicinity of 5 salt tiles, expanding onto 7, in the middle of the desert.

Barbarians are ridiculous but Mamluks can really do well clearing them out, even when they become Pikemen.

Jerusalem is not a Holy City! The description in the scenario even states that there are three of them: Mecca (Islam), Constantinople (E. Orthodox), and Vatican City (Christianity).

The complaints about tons of faith and nothing to do with it when playing under Islam are well justified. Missionary spam is annoying and there is nothing else to spend it on.

I had played Saladin before and restarted and it seems that Suleiman will always DoW you early on, but if you can repel him he will focus on Byzantium for the remainder of the scenario. Though leader personalities seem to wildly vary as well. Francis was friendly to me for the entire game, while every one of his Christian counterparts denounced me every chance they had.

Tip to win - Rush Caravels. The first Caravel is worth 500, second is worth 400, down to 100 for the final Caravel. That's 1500 points! I was only able to score on four of my Caravels as the weak Almohads kept losing the Strait of Gibraltar to Spain, who refused to give me OB no matter how much lux/gold I threw her way, as the Dutch managed to squeak the fifth Caravel to the New World.

My only serious gripe - Mongolia (Eastern Orthodox) gaining religious VP for wiping out Russia (ALSO Eastern Orthodox). What is the deal with that? I nearly lost despite being 1000 points ahead of any of the Christian nations.

Does the Protestant reformation always begin in Wittenburg or is it random?

I do not understand why this scenario is not more like "Fall of Rome" with all the cities already established and settlers disabled.

I played this as Austria and had a lot of fun doing so. I married quite a bit of city states, but remained allies with the ones left over so I win the election. My advice if your playing as Austria is this, make sure you are friendly towards all of western Europe. Austria is in the center of the map, which gives great opportunities. Go after the Byzantines and Russia, they are of a different religion and you get more points from them, and if you remain friends with everyone in the west you will be safe from behind.

BLORTH said:

My only serious gripe - Mongolia (Eastern Orthodox) gaining religious VP for wiping out Russia (ALSO Eastern Orthodox). What is the deal with that? I nearly lost despite being 1000 points ahead of any of the Christian nations.

Does the Protestant reformation always begin in Wittenburg or is it random?

Click to expand...

1 - Mongolia is technically 'no religion' at the start (I think maybe a pantheon), though it gets quickly overrun by Eastern Orthodoxy. That's part of the reason the Mongols are dangerous for Russia. Mongols get the points, Russia gets bogged down in a war with a civ that gets your religion faster than you can kill it.

2 - Yes Wittenburg is always the first Reformation, with Zurich (I think) being the 2nd Reformation a number of turns later. The only time those two aren't the reformation starters is when they've been taken over (by any means).
-- A fun way to mess with the 'Catholic Unity' is to head straight to Acoustics. That starts the Reformation early.

playing with Saladin, I attacked and took Jerusalem, but I dont get the benefits of my founder's belief c5gold: / 4 followers) is it a bug?
or does the 'get control of' means being allied with ?
gae-breaking, that's a 50 / turn hole, at turn 70.

Thibaulthc said:

playing with Saladin, I attacked and took Jerusalem, but I dont get the benefits of my founder's belief c5gold: / 4 followers) is it a bug?
or does the 'get control of' means being allied with ?
gae-breaking, that's a 50 / turn hole, at turn 70.

Click to expand...

You get gold for the number of followers of your religion, not if you control the cities, IIRC. If they already followed Islam, you would gain no benefit (you would actually lose some gold for killing off half the city). If they did not already have Islam, you must convert them to it.

Thibaulthc said:

playing with Saladin, I attacked and took Jerusalem, but I dont get the benefits of my founder's belief c5gold: / 4 followers) is it a bug?
or does the 'get control of' means being allied with ?
gae-breaking, that's a 50 / turn hole, at turn 70.

Click to expand...

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe a bug.
BTW capturing Mecca always work. Worth it, for the founder belief is awesome.

@Duke: you probably didnt understand me, or how this scenario works
@ggmoyang: ty; I tried to reload and retake the city, without changing the situation; so I just went to Mecca, and yes it worked Yes really worth it, 70 / turn at turn 100.

My plan is now to take 2-3 cities from the Turks, because they won't offer me open borders, then I'll try to stay in good terms with the Islamic Empires (Moroccans and Turks) and I'll rush on the Catholic cities (Byzntum first) with a bunch of Trebuchet and Saladins UU (Mandeku?)

Saladin is an interesting challenge in this scenario: lot of desert tiles, very hard to ally with CS, slower on techs because of the lack of food.. but plenty of luxuries, a direct access to Jerusalem and Mecca, and a huge income of gold from Religion. Let's see if I now can take enough "pig-eaters" cities to take the lead in points