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The Nobles' Club Bullpen: Second Cycle

We need a second Pro leader next time; I'm considering Saladin (Spi/Pro) on an Oasis map, which seems thematically appropriate.

it's a big map, like lake. maybe an extra AI is preferred. Also, are you able to move the player to north instead of south. all normal start are south, iirc.
 
There is definitely a lot of land, but with the complication that more of it is desert than on other maps. Some extra AIs are definitely justified, but I'll have to think about how many is appropriate. Some civs start in the north, others in the south; Saladin doesn't start with fishing, and north is where the ocean is, so I imagine south might be a better start.
 
NC LXVII Saladin is up. I updated my script to compute useful-tiles-per-civ and added leaders to make this map work out to have close to the median (138 tiles, with NC XXVII Charlemagne at a whopping 234 and XXX Boudica at 222, which is likely why some AIs ran away with those games at higher difficulty levels).

Considering the next game: We've now done every trait at least twice, with FIN and SPI thrice each, so our next leader should be some combination that excludes those two. Map types I've never used include:
  • Boreal
  • Donut
  • Ice Age
  • Rainforest
  • Ring World
  • Team Battleground
  • Tilted Axis
I wonder, though, whether people might prefer a nice simple Hemispheres or Continents or Archipelago for a change before the next "unusual" map.

Someday I'll get around to updating my spreadsheet to include map types so we can easily see how often we've played each type.
 
One of the goals I adopted for this second cycle, prompted by one or two suggestions from players, was to try out some of the rarer map types. The trouble is that those rarer map types are rare for a good reason: they're often harder to play. I've been a little uneasy about this -- witness my comment in yesterday's message -- but for a while it seemed to be working out OK.

Unfortunately Oasis can be a very difficult map type for a beginner: you start in the south where there is little food. As lymond pointed out, this might be very discouraging for the Noble level players the series is intended for. The Saladin map is in place now, so we're stuck with whatever turns out to happen with that game -- but it's worth talking about map design for future installments.

I used to edit maps a lot to make them very easy, but cut back on some of my favourite edits (like eliminating deserts) in response to suggestions. I started using some unusual map types in response to suggestions. Maybe I've gone too far away from the kind of map that's fun for Nobles. So let me know what you are looking for -- especially if you play at less than Monarch difficulty.
 
As a player new to Noble, these are my thoughts on the Saladin map.

It's bloody hard!

I'm still trying to get to grips with the basics:
1) City placement & unit build orders - REXing,
2) City specialisations - what to build in each city and when,
3) Specialists (where to place them and how to use them),
4) National Wonders - where to put them and when and how you get them.
5) Planning your win strategy based on your leader, the map and civs encountered.
6) The pros can cons of each tech path, which relates back to point 5.

Now, I'm not expecting easy starts - I can get those by regenerating the map, but I would like to see the possibility of a decent group of core cities (say 3 or 4) that I can work towards in the early game once I have scouted the local area.

The two cities sites S of Mecca need IW and CS to become effective and the cities to the N are a LONG walk with your first settler.
I'm still not comfortable sending out a settler into the world on his own with just a couple of fog busters in the area - I know it's possible, but I still lose settlers to panthers and wolves that seem to spring out of the undergrowth 3 squares away :(

Over the past few days a group of about new players have started at Noble level: Myself, austincm, luukdeman111 and Draconarius. I for one would prefer a more 'normal' map for the next challenge.

I've never played Pangea, Archipelago, Continents, Hemispheres or Inland sea. One of those might be nice :D
 
Rolled random oasis map to see in wb what this map type is about... and I got immedietaly some returning memories of Justy game.

When new players come here and start calling for help, the first thing we advice is to use some "normal map scripts". For us veterans choosing "weird" map scripts spices up things from time to time, but for learning purposes is better to choose some "standard" map types.

Maybe we crossed the line with spicing up things already. don't remember perfectly but I think last 4 maps were unusual (well that france one is borderline with 6 continents)?

Next game should be more standard... be it continents/hemispheres (less played)/fractal(most played). I wouldn't choose pangea, since Oasis seems to be variant of pangea
 
I've never played Pangea, Archipelago, Continents, Hemispheres or Inland sea. One of those might be nice :D

Pangea is a good map for NC, you will meet everyone (pretty much) on the map so good to get used to diplomacy.
Continents is good fun, I love the way you meet up with a separate set of people who have been developing on their own, and practice at creating a naval invasion force if you so wish.
Not played archipelago much.

I used to play Terra a lot, similar to pangea in that you'll meet everyone. The move to the other continent is fun too (but they're big maps)
 
Just to clarify my original post in the game thread, my issue was not so much with the map type but the map alterations made to the game. This map is very winnable and could be interesting at any level. However, most standard map scripts have certain algorithms (or whatever) to ensure a certain amount of resources are present in the starting cap's BFC. Granted, these sometimes fail and bad starts are rolled. Yet this bad start was not rolled but rather manipulated. I'm curious as to what the original start position might have been.

Now from what I've seen, at least from this game, the land outside the desert, surprisingly, is somewhat sparse in resources. This nerfs the AI as well. I played this on Immortal and had a tech lead while using the very poor strategy (just for fun) of going for every early religion. Built Oracle and got CoL(Conf) and Theo(Christianity) as well. The point is that original start was probably not great either, but I would be surprised if we had no resources whatsoever like this start - that doesn't make for much of an interesting game unless you are setting up a certain challenge (think "4 Green Fields")

Anyway, my suggestion to Dalamb is for less manipulation of the map as rolled. It really goes against one of the standard tenets of civvers. I'm fine with re-rolling maps as much as you want to get an adequate start, but most standard maps scripts and starts should be sufficient for any level player.

As for map scripts. I think some of the more unique scripts are interesting for a change of pace now and then, especially since more experienced players join in the fun. Maybe just alternate between your standards (Fractal, Continents, Pangaea, etc.) and the oddball mapscript - or 2-1-2. The Darius game was loads of fun, even if very easy.

With that said, great job with the series dalamb and keeping it going strong! :)
 
I would'nt mind seeing Ragnar on Archipelago for the next game. I know that will be easy and perhaps overpowered, but it will be fun!
 
Depends on the level you play at, stevoh, as well as the map and the AIs. I've been playing a lot of archipelago maps, including several as Ragnar, and I wouldn't call him overpowered at all. Archipelago is a great change of pace because it requires a very different style of play than one of the other scripts. Since it is a rather different type of game, I suggest sticking to a more standard script for a game or two before doing something like that.
 
Depends on the level you play at, stevoh, as well as the map and the AIs. I've been playing a lot of archipelago maps, including several as Ragnar, and I wouldn't call him overpowered at all. Archipelago is a great change of pace because it requires a very different style of play than one of the other scripts. Since it is a rather different type of game, I suggest sticking to a more standard script for a game or two before doing something like that.

I shadowed TMIT's Ragnar lp offline during Xmass on Emperor and it was very fun, i won it as my seccond Emperor victory then. It would be easier now as im used to emperor. Although i suppose your right, mabey a few cointents/fractal games first might be a better learning curve for our Warlord-Monarch players.
 
dunno it seems to me that every water map is basically GLH+MC->Colossus gambit... and with financial leader even more so... and I played something like that in the Maze map not so long ago
 
Just to clarify my original post in the game thread, my issue was not so much with the map type but the map alterations made to the game. ... Yet this bad start was not rolled but rather manipulated. I'm curious as to what the original start position might have been. ... Anyway, my suggestion to Dalamb is for less manipulation of the map as rolled.
I don't know where you got the idea I made major manipulations to this map; all I did was swap our original southern position with another southern civ whose starting position looked better (meaning our original position was worse :eek:) and add one resource somewhat near us; I certainly didn't cut anything out.
Spoiler details in hidden in case someone wants to remain surprised :
I generated a bunch of maps trying to figure out how much useful land they tend to have, so I could deduce how many AIs to add (it turns out 2 extras gives each civ about as much territory as our typical games). I then picked some opponents and did a long series of regenerates, finally realizing that consistently:
  • We always started in the south
  • The south has very little food.
I thought about putting us in the north instead, but finally decided that if all my regenerates were putting us in the south, maybe I should stick with that half of the map. I then added a stone somewhere (meant to, but forgot) since the original map had none at all.
Ragnar,... Archipelago ... Since it is a rather different type of game, I suggest sticking to a more standard script for a game or two before doing something like that.
I agree. When we get to Ragnar, Archipelago is where I'd personally prefer to put him, but I think we need easier map types for a bit.
dunno it seems to me that every water map is basically GLH+MC->Colossus gambit... and with financial leader even more so... and I played something like that in the Maze map not so long ago
And that's another good reason to delay Ragnar for a while.
 
As for map scripts. I think some of the more unique scripts are interesting for a change of pace now and then, especially since more experienced players join in the fun. Maybe just alternate between your standards (Fractal, Continents, Pangaea, etc.) and the oddball mapscript - or 2-1-2. The Darius game was loads of fun, even if very easy.

I'm one of the advocate for the rare maps. Just a little bored with all the standard maps (a.k.a, those who are accepted by the HoF). And of course, considering the NC tradition, we should have a mix of standard/non-standard so that it could keep most of the participants happy. It's a shame that I haven't got time play either of last two games which were both recommended by me. :D Actually, the maze map was really a wierdo type especially if you make the maze width to 1. Anyway, I really hope by playing the rare maps we can contribute more strategies variations based on maps, not just play the pangae and follow the "rule" sort of thingy.

Time to board. Will post once i'm in States.
 
I know a lot of people playing NC games these days aren't noble-level players (myself included). But I think that the core purpose of the NC games should remain "teaching the game". As long as the games are doing that in some meaningful manner, I think that any map script can be OK.

I do not, however, favour "unusual" maps simply for the sake of unusual maps.

Spoilers for current map...

Spoiler :

The current map is a good choice, for instance, since it teaches the player about dealing with barbs, and about dealing with a resource-poor start. These are skills that may be useful in any game.
 
Map types I've never used include:
  • Boreal
  • Donut
  • Ice Age
  • Rainforest
  • Ring World
  • Team Battleground
  • Tilted Axis

Is Ring World different to "Ring"? Because Ring got used for Elizabeth.

Boreal looks interesting. Rainforest appears to be the same kind of map script, but with lots of jungle and desert instead of Boreal's forests and big lakes. Boreal might offer some good lessons about chopping and worker use. Rainforest would possibly offer lessons about health management, food, and that there are times when beelining iron working is a good idea :)

Both of those map types are also interesting in that they lack ocean (as did the recently used Oasis, though) so certain building types and wonders become less valuable, or can't be used at all.

Ice Age probably has some value as a map too - it's likely to be food poor, and should in theory have a quite different resource balance than usual. Hunting (for camps) is probably a stronger starter tech on this map than it normally would be.

Tilted Axis is amusing, in that appears to be just a normal map turned on its side (do you get circumnavigation by going north/south instead of east/west, I wonder?). It might be a good choice for feeling unusual while still offering a more-or-less "standard" map.

Team Battleground and Donut seem like very 'gamey' scripts to me, and don't appeal much, but others might like them.
 
Although I'm not a member of the club, might I suggest Tectonics-Inland Sea? Tectonics generates a more interesting Medditerraean-style map than the standard Inland Sea script. One drawback to both is the high amount of plains that such maps have since even irrigated they only break even. Since the Inland Sea maps are large (even on Standard) it might be worth seeding some extra AIs unless the GM wants to teach REXing. Without the extra AIs there are usually lots of barb cities to conquer.

Hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to play Saladin and see what advice I can get as I am a Noble-level player whose skills are rusty since I've been playing the Orbis and History of Three Kingdoms mods and the economic systems are different than standard BtS.
 
With the standard tectonics map, setting the aridity to 'wet' seems to limit the plainspam pretty nicely. Might work with the inland sea variant too?
 
With the standard tectonics map, setting the aridity to 'wet' seems to limit the plainspam pretty nicely. Might work with the inland sea variant too?
Good thought. Now that I'm back from work, and can run Civ, I've generated some Tectonics-Inland Sea with the Wet setting. Unfortunately, it only removes the deserts in the Levantine and North African areas of the map (and the Flood Plains) replacing them with Grasslands. The rest of the map is unchanged.

Is Ringworld2 the same as Ring World? If so, this is what resulted when I generated a map with the Continents setting. Apparently it simulates Larry Niven's Ringworld from the novel of the same name. As you can see, there's a narrow strip of usable map area bounded by ocean, then ice cap. So it is very different from the standard Ring script.
 

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