Do you think Germany's failure to destroy the BEF at Dunkirk was a major setback?

Did Dunkirk affect the WW2's out come?

  • Yes, major effect that changed war.

    Votes: 40 76.9%
  • No, was unimportant

    Votes: 12 23.1%

  • Total voters
    52
Your posts are seldom comprehensible r16, but are you trying to say that De Gaulle was part of some sort of long-term plot to take control of the French state, possibly in collusion with Vichy and/or Germany? Or that he had no idea what he was doing when he attacked the German force in 1940? Because, as a man who wrote a book on tank warfare that was read by both Manstein and Guderian before the war, he was possibly the only man in France who did know exactly what was needed to stop an armoured race to the sea.

am seriously out of your ongoing debate with a CFC member ; and what ı kinda imply is de Gaulle was aware of the German concentration and took the French Prime Minister to give the 4th DCR or whatever that division was to him . And he would have been there in force to cut off the German spearheads if the said Germans had not already crossed the Meuse with kinda massive forces and that actually was apparently on some kind of fluke since French gunners and stuff panicked with the rumours that the Panzers had already crossed . Rommel was already repulsed in a couple of places afterall .
 
am seriously out of your ongoing debate with a CFC member ; and what ı kinda imply is de Gaulle was aware of the German concentration and took the French Prime Minister to give the 4th DCR or whatever that division was to him . And he would have been there in force to cut off the German spearheads if the said Germans had not already crossed the Meuse with kinda massive forces and that actually was apparently on some kind of fluke since French gunners and stuff panicked with the rumours that the Panzers had already crossed . Rommel was already repulsed in a couple of places afterall .
De Gaulle did petition for that brigade, certainly. I don't know if it was Reynaud he asked, but he got Reynaud's attention in the process. The big difference between De Gaulle's counterstrike and the other handful of stalled advances is that De Gaulle deliberately struck at the German supply corridor, whereas most of the rest of the hold-ups were due to the French successfully holding a fortified position in the face of a numerically superior force.
 
ı would hope to avoid a sense of antagonism here , but de Gaulle was almost certainly the only French armoured commander that might have struck German supply lines in any case , when it counted . When the other forces could be brought to bear , the French already suspected the BEF was on the run and the maps looked scary enough to discourage anyone with Germans clearly marching to the sea somewhere .
 
can someone help me with something about Hanna's suitcase?
For history I'm starting my isu can someone help me write a diary entry on her life as a Jew during in ww1 and ww2?
 
Not very carefully, since you seem unfamiliar with the Second Book.

As stated earlier, that pertains to mr H's worldview, not Dunkirk. But thanks for the citations, which make that perfectly clear.

The citation is to prove the existence of a book. The citation proves the existence of said book. I don't really give a toss about anything else on the page, as I'm not referencing anything on the page. Your clinging to the (relatively standard, for Wiki) statement that the page has issues in a sad attempt to avoid having to admit you were typing out of your arse about a subject you don't actually know about. As in the De Gaulle discussion in the MacArthur thread.

You seem to like to go off on side issues. The De Gaulle 'discussion', where you kept insisiting De Gaulle was part of a coup that never took place. Oh, I recall that:

This discussion is like trying to teach Japanese to a monkey. Without knowing Japanese. But then again, this is a poster who is too stupid - or, more likely, a first year uni student who took a history class and now thinks they know everything there is to know about all history everywhere - to understand that, in another thread, when I say that the French military instigated a coup in favour of De Gaulle, I am in no way saying that De Gaulle, who was not a military officer at the time, was instigating the coup. Of course he doesn't realise that "never published" and "unpublished" are the same thing. And, for that matter, Mein Kampff II - as the version I read was known - has been published since Hitler's death, just not in his lifetime.

Humbug. Mein Kampf was fairly available in the 3rd Reich, to put it mildly. The income from it provided part of mr H's fortune (also mentioned in Kershaw).

More humbug:

You're posts are so nonsensical people from outside of the forum are literally posting into the discussion just to point out their flaws. bhsup never posts here, and JoanK posts barely more often. I think it's quite conclusive which one of us is posting humbug.

Indeed. Keep going:

Hitler's foreign policy manifesto is of no relevance to his foreign policy? Righto.

Dunkirk or the planned invasion of Britain was the topic, remember?

Because they are not incompatible. This is the reason why this particular historical debate has not been decided, and likely never will; Hitler never wrote down his exact goal for the Battle of Britain, so it is open to interpretation.

Humbug. The first goal of the battle of Britain was to neutralize the RAF. That first goal already failed.

It basically comes down to how much credit you give Hitler's military abilities; I give him more than most, because while not a natural general, he did possess remarkable instincts, probably honed during his years of political warfare, and several of his close friends were generals. Keitel in particular was close to Hitler. Hitler seldom made mistakes in offensive planning, but also had problems with understanding logistics; you see this in Barbarossa, where he often made very good tactical decisions, such as at Kiev, but failed to adequately supply his troops for attrition.

Yes, well, logistics is an important part of strategic planning, as you might read in any military history. The whole 1942 campaign (as the original Barbarossa, which was supposed to have been decided by the end of '41) was completely lacking in that.

My personal view is that he would have taken a capitulation if it was offerred, but that he was probably counting on the Vichy Fleet falling into his hands, with which he may have believed an invasion feasible. I have no evidence to support this view, however.

Obviously. Nazi Germany had no control over Vichy military assets: Vichy was officially 'neutral'; it also did not take part in Hitler's other wars.

But wait, we have some more ad hominem:

Because he hasn't read it, PCH. He quickly Googled "Biographies of Hitler," found the most widely respected book, and claimed to have read it. He may have looked at a quick excerpt somewhere. But that's all. He reminds me of myself at 17.

So, to sum up, you have a 'view', but it's not actually based on any facts. I'm sure that's very interesting. It's also not very much like a historian. As all your personal invectives: not based on actual fact, but hey, let's throw it in there anyway. I'm sorry, that simply doesn't constitute an argument. If anything, it detracts from it.

And by the way, anyone who had actually read Kershaw's biography would certainly know that the 'Second Book' has no relevance whatsoever to military operations around Dunkirk or the battle of Britain. But just to remind you, as you seem to have trouble remembering what people actually post, I already mentioned that Hitler was expecting Britain to offer peace after the fall of France (also in Kershaw). So it seems rather clear which of us actually read Nemesis.

Cheers.
 
I know someone who hasn't. Me. Yet, you show such poor reading comprehension skills trying to address other points that I can't give you any credibility.
 
As stated earlier, that pertains to mr H's worldview, not Dunkirk. But thanks for the citations, which make that perfectly clear.
No one else has claimed direct relevance between Zweites Buch and the Battle of Dunkirk.

And by the way, anyone who had actually read Kershaw's biography would certainly know that the 'Second Book' has no relevance whatsoever to military operations around Dunkirk or the battle of Britain.
This is a reversal of your earlier position on Kershaw, and the Sequel, and a mischaracterization of Stuart's position.

Earlier this thread you claimed that the Zweites Buch did not exist. As such, the contents of any hypothetical sequel to MK would be unknowable.

Now you claim that anyone who actually read Kershaw would know very specific things about the contents of the Zweites Buch, beyond simple things such as it's mere existence.

Now, as for the matter of it's direct relevance to the Battle of Britain, you are so far, the only person in this thread to open that possibility. You are the one who engaged James Stuart in that divergence on the grounds that the Zweites Buch did not exist.

Humbug. The first goal of the battle of Britain was to neutralize the RAF. That first goal already failed.
If it is 'humbug' that Hitler never enumerated the goals of the Battle of Britain, than it should be simple enough to produce a direct quotation on the matter?
 
We don't exist to write your essays. Nor do we read minds; I don't know who Hanna is, or what the hell she has to do with the BEF.

plus the only Hanna ı myself could have come up with was not even a kid in WW1 .


means let's see what happenz .
 
You seem to like to go off on side issues. The De Gaulle 'discussion', where you kept insisiting De Gaulle was part of a coup that never took place. Oh, I recall that:
It is truly pathetic how you continue to mischaracerise my statements. I never claimed De Gaulle was part of a coup. And you started that discussion. So that's mischaracterisation one.

Humbug. Mein Kampf was fairly available in the 3rd Reich, to put it mildly. The income from it provided part of mr H's fortune (also mentioned in Kershaw).

More humbug:
Mein Kampf is not under discussion. It's sequel, which you first claimed did not exist, citing a source which mentions its existence as proof that it did not exist :)confused:), then claimed was unimportant, and now are dismissing as off-topic, despite the fact that you steered the discussion in this direction. So that's mischaracterisation two and three.

Which species of monkey are you? My money is on howler monkey myself; the incessant pointless wailing that accomplishes nothing and your interest in flinging poop, but inability to actually strike your target with said poop, are dead giveaways.

Indeed. Keep going:
No need. You got dick-slapped by two subsequent posts, including by one of the posters I directly mentioned.

Dunkirk or the planned invasion of Britain was the topic, remember?
Are you sure you want to discuss that again? Because I thoroughly humiliated you in that discussion as well, which is why you tried to strike off on a tangent in the belief that the book you Googled would allow you to claim back some debating honour through argument via authority. You just didn't Google hard enough, because your own source disproved your claims.

Since it was you who diverted the topic, that's mischaracterisation four.

Humbug. The first goal of the battle of Britain was to neutralize the RAF. That first goal already failed.
Hitler literally never once spoke or wrote of his goal for the Battle of Britain, and his military skills would tend to contraindicate the traditional scenario. But by all means, continue to make unsupported - and unsupportable, given that there is NO evidence one way or the other about this - claims; I always did enjoy seeing the fish flapping about in desperation on the deck, in the vain belief that it could somehow flap itself back into the ocean.

I'm not sure if you're mischaracterising me here, or Hitler himself, but either way, that's number five.

Obviously. Nazi Germany had no control over Vichy military assets: Vichy was officially 'neutral'; it also did not take part in Hitler's other wars.
Vichy was "neutral" in the same way that the US was "neutral" before Pearl Harbor. Less so, actually, as Vichy directly participated in Operation: Torch, provided ports for the North African campaign, bases of operations in Syria and Lebanon for the attempted Iraqi and Iranian coups, provided 'volunteer' regiments for Operation: Barbarossa, was the site of Operation: Overlord and Operation: Dragoon, provided both paid and slave labour to work in the Reich, rounded up Jews and delivered them to the camps on their own authority before Otto Abetz requested they do so, and even provided detachments of Waffen SS for the Battle of Berlin. So we're now up to mischaracterisation number six.

But wait, we have some more ad hominem:
It's only an ad hominem if it is an attack on the arguer in lieu of an attack on the argument. Considering your argument is inferior to the average high school history student's, I demolished it quite quickly before progressing to your public humiliation. Don't feel bad; I wrote my thesis on this topic. When my doctorate becomes official, I will likely publish it. Then you can incorrectly cite my book in your losing online arguments. So we'll count that as number seven.

So, to sum up, you have a 'view', but it's not actually based on any facts. I'm sure that's very interesting. It's also not very much like a historian. As all your personal invectives: not based on actual fact, but hey, let's throw it in there anyway. I'm sorry, that simply doesn't constitute an argument. If anything, it detracts from it.
Such a debate is literally the only thing that historians do, as a profession. We're not chronologists or genealogists. You have a high school understanding of the discipline. So mischaracterisation number eight is of the whole discipline of history itself.

And by the way, anyone who had actually read Kershaw's biography would certainly know that the 'Second Book' has no relevance whatsoever to military operations around Dunkirk or the battle of Britain.
I'm not sure whether to count this as another mischaracterisation, or simply to lump it in with the exact same claim you made earlier. What the hell, I'm feeling generous; let's make it number nine.

But just to remind you, as you seem to have trouble remembering what people actually post,
And we just hit double-digits, ladies and gentlemen.

I already mentioned that Hitler was expecting Britain to offer peace after the fall of France (also in Kershaw).
You sure have developed a hard-on for that book, haven't you? Decided to actually read it in the eleven days between PCH and myself pointing out that you didn't know the book's contents and writing this apologia, did you? Anyway, as I never stated that you said anything different to your above claim, we're now at eleven mischaracterisations.

So it seems rather clear which of us actually read Nemesis.

Cheers.
I never claimed to have read Nemesis. I haven't, nor do I intend to; I am uninterested in reading a biography of possibly the most famous man in the twentieth century, as I doubt I'll come across anything I haven't culled from other sources previously. I certainly won't come across anything I need for my research. So since you seem to be implying that I claimed to have read the book, that's another mischaracterisation to close your post, for a grand total of twelve.

I'm beginning to see why you're so defensive. You're lack of debating skill and reading comprehension must result in you getting your arse handed to you a lot. As a former MMA guy, I know that's not fun.
 
Vichy was "neutral" in the same way that the US was "neutral" before Pearl Harbor. Less so, actually, as Vichy directly participated in Operation: Torch, provided ports for the North African campaign, bases of operations in Syria and Lebanon for the attempted Iraqi and Iranian coups, provided 'volunteer' regiments for Operation: Barbarossa, was the site of Operation: Overlord and Operation: Dragoon, provided both paid and slave labour to work in the Reich, rounded up Jews and delivered them to the camps on their own authority before Otto Abetz requested they do so, and even provided detachments of Waffen SS for the Battle of Berlin. So we're now up to mischaracterisation number six.


Now, I always saw Vichy France in maps as roughly the southern half of France minus its Atlantic coast. The rest of France seemed to have been under some form of direct German rule. Is this just a slip on your side or is there a reason for this graphic representation of a divided France?
 
What are this Incorporated Zone and that Prohibited Zone?
 
Zone Interdite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_interdite "The terms zone réservée ("reserved zone") and zone interdite were often used interchangeably, but some sources distinguish a smaller forbidden zone, comprising parts of Somme, Aisne and Ardennes départements, from the larger reserved zone."
 
Thanks. That whole site you linked to for the map was interesting to read.
 
The whole subject of Vichy France and the German occupation is endlessly fascinating (even if it was (arguably) a sideshow to the larger conflict).
 
Now, I always saw Vichy France in maps as roughly the southern half of France minus its Atlantic coast. The rest of France seemed to have been under some form of direct German rule. Is this just a slip on your side or is there a reason for this graphic representation of a divided France?
As Browd showed, it was a lot more complicated than that. Vichy exercised varying degrees of authority and sovereignty over different parts of its territory, ranging from total to non-existent, with many shades in-between. Browd's source can explain this a lot better than I can. Then, of course, Germany occupied the remainder of Metropolitan France during Operation: Torch, but left Petain technically in charge.
 
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