Discussion on Potential NES and IOT Forum Merger

baseballpie said:

I think I can tell you with almost near-certainty, that it's not the names driving away new players. It's probably the fact that your tight-knit community implements a steep learning curve to join a new IOT that makes it hard for anyone foreign to the community to integrate themselves. It wasn't the name that stopped me from coming here until recently, it was that the nature of IOT in general discourages noobs from joining. If you want new people to join in, then it won't be a name change that stops them. It's the roots of the game that's stopping them.

Just my 2 cents.

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Could you elaborate? I haven't noticed that, but I was in the first IOT so I experienced a very different learning curve compared to most people.

Well, what I mean is that the IOT veterans, whether intentionally or not, almost seem to discourage new players. Of course it is probably unintentional, but the stat-based nature of the IOTs are just unfriendly to new recruits. I remember some of my early days at CFC, when I was scared, maybe a little intimidated, by the community that you guys kept. I was this guy with 200 posts, and here you guys were constantly sigging each other's quotes when you had 8000 posts. It seemed like a really close, really tight-knit community, and I kinda thought, "You know, what am I to be playing the same games as these people?" I was scared because I was afraid that I'd be an alien there, that you'd think, "Man, who does this noob think he is?" To an extent, I still am a tad today. And maybe it's me, maybe it's my personality that does that, but I can swear that I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

Huh.

I guess if any noobs show up in the future I'll VM them about how good it is that we now have more sacrifices to Khorne players. How is NES different, though? NESers sig each other all the time and probably have even more posts on average.

Both can be interchangeable.

Further empirical evidence that the communities are fundamentally more alike than different.

I know exactly what you mean, though. I always used to think the one advantage IOT had over NES community-wise was that we were a lot more open to new blood—I'd tried to get into NES before IOT even existed, but I was so overwhelmed by all the unspoken customs even at a cursory glance that I quickly gave up. Ever since the S&Ters took over the IOT player base, though, I've seen a gradual shift into this tight-knit 'insider' clique, anchored less around the games themselves than a Dawkinsian memetic culture—again, just like NES.

When people talk about the forums being incompatible, it has nothing to do with the genres of the games and everything to do with these customs walls. Heck, there are times I feel like IOT and NES wall themselves off from the rest of CFC; it's one of the reasons I hate auxiliary chatrooms, because the further and further you withdraw from the general community, the harder and harder it becomes not merely to attract new players, but to regard them as equals in the first place—the Frontier's referral policy a case in point. In a previous merger "discussion", I was laughed at for likening the NES-IOT rivalry to a race war; but the methodology is uncannily similar, and I still believe that the only way to overcome the mutual prejudice is actual integration, not this "separate but equal" nonsense.

I won't pretend that both sides don't have their share of bigots, but the most vehement (and frankly, least persuasive) opposition has always come from top-tier NESers like Luckymoose that simply repeat ad nauseum that the supposed class/racial/cultural incongruities can never be overcome and that the "IOT peril" will destroy the board. Now that most of this clique has emigrated to the Frontier, I'm much more confident that there are real grounds for a meaningful dialogue, whatever its final outcome.

baseballpie said:

Well, what I mean is that the IOT veterans, whether intentionally or not, almost seem to discourage new players. Of course it is probably unintentional, but the stat-based nature of the IOTs are just unfriendly to new recruits. I remember some of my early days at CFC, when I was scared, maybe a little intimidated, by the community that you guys kept. I was this guy with 200 posts, and here you guys were constantly sigging each other's quotes when you had 8000 posts. It seemed like a really close, really tight-knit community, and I kinda thought, "You know, what am I to be playing the same games as these people?" I was scared because I was afraid that I'd be an alien there, that you'd think, "Man, who does this noob think he is?" To an extent, I still am a tad today. And maybe it's me, maybe it's my personality that does that, but I can swear that I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

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I'm pretty new compared to the others (I came to IOT from RFC: DoC in January 2014 in contrast to other players that have been there since god knows when), but I felt quite welcomed the first time I joined. Personally, after observing some of those that came after I did, I find that those whom are more respectful towards fellow players both new and old; and respond kindly to others' opinions tend to be well received.

Though I won't deny there's that certain hostility, often towards new comers that haven't really understood how things work. From what I've seen so far, all of these hostilities came in a form of veterans butchering and headbutting a sign-up or RP made by newcomers mercilessly, often in a very derogatory manner. Some IOTs demands a certain degree of seriousness, and most of the time something like New Glorious Robo-Feminist Soviet Byzantium Empire of America isn't a thing that these IOTs can tolerate. IOTers can be superbly nitpick-y regarding things like these, a little mistake in history or whatever can result in a massive carpet bombardment by the veterans. Sometimes, the newcomers will concede, albeit being left with a bad taste for IOTers that may discourage them from playing further; other times they'll fight back and the veterans will....well, you know what I mean. Though to be fair, the same thing also happens to long-time players when they make similar mistakes.

In my opinion veterans should be friendlier when 'assisting' newcomers and newcomers should be more willing to listen. One of the best way to quickly integrate with IOT is to join and participate in the Chatroom. That'll allow you to get know of each other and discuss IOT related things, questions/problems/etc. in a friendlier atmosphere.

Additionally, it is also best for newcomers to always ask in private before posting anything if you have doubts/uncertainties about an IOT. That'll prevent the public stoning that I've stated above. The best person to ask would be the GM of the said IOT. But don't hesitate to ask me, or any other players; most of us are quite friendly and welcoming

Hopefully, you'll have a wonderful time in IOT as I do

All right, as promised, a new poll has been established for a proper vote on the possibility of a merger. Please, for those concerned in the issue, place your votes here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=542970

I am very much interested in ideas about how things can be better or not for our current users with a merger. Tell me; are the two communities going merge more into each others games? into other community activities? are the two game forms going to cross pollinate and show some hybrid vigor? will the NES Iot interaction create a singularity sucking both communities into oblivion? Will there be communal warfare between factions?

Give me some insight here.

Personally I think the most major gain would be in a name change, something that gives more of an indication of what is in the subforum rather than the current names. Not spliting the player base for very similar games doesn't hurt either.

hoplitejoe said:

Personally I think the most major gain would be in a name change, something that gives more of an indication of what is in the subforum rather than the current names.

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How about:

The utterly fantastic Sub Forum where amazing people play play wonderful games like IoT, NES, and other great stuff

Lefty Scaevola said:

How about:

The utterly fantastic Sub Forum where amazing people play play wonderful games like IoT, NES, and other great stuff

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Scaevola vult.

I'm still not entirely convinced that a merger is warranted.

However, I have posted this privately and will post it publicly, if a merger ultimately goes through, I support the title Narrative Strategy Games to refer to the united community. This is both sufficiently broad and sufficiently narrow to encompass the full scope of what IOT and NES do. I'm perfectly happy puttering on in the NES forum, and I've found in fact that it's quite easy to get enough players to play anything if the moderation support is there.

But I'm not categorically opposed to a merger either...I simply want this to be done in an organized fashion. I don't want to agree to a merge only to find out later that it was a rushed process offending both parties.

Lefty Scaevola said:

How about:

The utterly fantastic Sub Forum where amazing people play play wonderful games like IoT, NES, and other great stuff

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I'm pretty sure the board software doesn't allow forum titles with that many character spaces...

Valka D'Ur said:

I'm pretty sure the board software doesn't allow forum titles with that many character spaces...

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Yes, I am aware that Lefty intended to make a joke.

Valka D'Ur said:

Yes, I am aware that Lefty intended to make a joke.

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Well it looks like I'm the one who missed the joke.

...I have not used that smiley in many years. Brings back memories.

Valka D'Ur said:

I'm pretty sure the board software doesn't allow forum titles with that many character spaces...

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Well hecky darn, I guess we will have to trash the entire board and start over with new software.

I like Narrative Strategy Games for a new title.

Scarlet_King said:

I like Narrative Strategy Games for a new title.

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Even though that doesn't describe everything NES or IOT do. Losing either name is sort of a major let down, especially when you want to label a NES or IOT during a merger. If everything is NSG then you can't tell from the title what is what. Why is this bad? Cause NESers and IOTers present different types of games.

And both names can be combined easily enough.

NES/IOT