Great! so I might be closer than I thought and I shouldn't need to double their population. I guess I'm going back into the code so I know for sure.
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- Thread starter shulec
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Great! so I might be closer than I thought and I shouldn't need to double their population. I guess I'm going back into the code so I know for sure.
Ok, I've studied the peacevassal code and I understand exactly how the AI can or can't deny you.
The link above is helpful, but not quite correct and not complete. If anyone cares, I'd be happy to answer questions. Time to get back to my game.
The link above is helpful, but not quite correct and not complete. If anyone cares, I'd be happy to answer questions. Time to get back to my game.
Didn't check the code for that function, but I would guess that canVassalRevolt(eTeam) only returns false, if their land or their pop are below 50% of your land or pop. Otherwise, DENIAL_POWER_US ("Doing fine on our own") is triggered.
Is there more to it?
Good luck with your game!
Is there more to it?
Good luck with your game!
That's exactly right. A vassal that capitulates cannot free themselves, but a peace vassal can. So if the AI meets either condition (you mentioned above) which would allow them to possibly free themselves from their master, they won't even agree to be a vassal in the first place.
Of course, there are more conditions for denial, but that one is the only other thing that gives you "Doing Fine" besides the power ratio stuff.
Conclusions for my game:
Since I like to whip military and I need them for my power ratio, getting double population is too hard, especially on Deity. That means I simply need double land. I'm already almost there. It's too bad I chose to raze a couple crappy cities. Now that I understand the rules, I should have kept them.
If you have double the land and triple the power (and of course good diplo relations, etc.) You can peace vassal anyone anywhere on the map. Note: if you played on a smaller map with everyone sharing borders, then you only need 1.5x power (not triple.) Triple allows you a lot more freedom in the order you get your vassals.
Even before turn 0, I've been planning to peace vassal. That's why I chose Brennus (SPI) and easy-vassaling opponents. I've been working on my diplo all game long.
My new goal is to peace vassal 5 civs. I'll shoot for 6, but it gets complicated.
This leaves only 4-5 civs that I need to get to capitulate with my giant military. Three of those are all lined up in the south, so I can easily roll from one to the next. (and when you think 'South' on this map, think more non-hills cities.) I now hope to win before T250
Mitchum
Deity
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Quit teasing us, man!!
He has either forgotten about shared diplomatic stance or his diplo is better than mine.
Very interested in seeing the saves and reading the writeup.
My current game btw. won't beat the T425 I had in the rejected game. If I'm good, maybe T500 is possible. I probably choose the wrong settings this time with going minimum opponents, and everybody is so big that they don't want to vassal freely already. Also reaching Cuirrassiers was a pain, running constant deficit of -50 to -100 GPT @ 0% and having no or only little techs to sell to AI because the other empires have 3 times the GNP of me. Also had to go twice against the #1 civ, sometimes their militaries were bigger than 50 units in their SoDs.
It's a wonder that I got Liberalism at all, but had to take stupid Printing Press from it because all other techs were already available by trade.
Not sure if I'm gonna play a 3rd game, this map with these settings means pure suffering sometimes. I probably will try, if WastinTime is too good and will try out his peace-vassal-approach, but then with max-opponents again. Never want go against 30 city empires again.
I decided to go after the top two researchers (they're in the south) who are the only ones that have a prayer of getting longbows. It took me ~6 turns to get everyone in position, but then I took all her cities (only 8) in about 3-4 turns. Each city with only 2-3 defenders. One spear total. I think in this gauntlet, you have to be fast enough to catch the AI with their pants down.
Oh, another tip.
I don't think going for 3x power is realistic. Too much maintenance. I've switched to 1.5x power and only vassaling land targets
I don't think going for 3x power is realistic. Too much maintenance. I've switched to 1.5x power and only vassaling land targets
I think I'm good here. I'm going to first take Sule and then Hatty as vassals. That's a guarantee.
After that, Mansa and Cathy are also a 'sure thing'.
Louis is my 5th target, but I think he may get too much power. He found a hole in the ridgelines and can expand into what would have been the Inca territory
. He has 11 cities and power is going up. Fortunately, he's backward and I can just squash him if I need to.Technically, Louis will be my 3rd target. I'll hold off on Mansa and Cathy until I know whether I can get him.
Zara and Sury will be dead in less than 10 turns. T230
That leaves only : DeGaulle and Fred.
It will take 10 turns to gather troops. T240
less than 5 turns to cap them both. T245 (sometimes it only takes 1 turn
)Both are backward and pinned in. There will be no Elephants and no Longbows.
It's T203.
I'm considering a couple missionaries to get a couple temples in my Oracle city (no religion spread yet). The purpose being to pop a GProphet for a shrine. Half the world is Budda and half Juda. I have the Juda Holy city. This is where the T250 goal becomes important. It will take at least 10 turns to get those temples up and another 30 turns of GPP generation. Then the GPro needs to move. So I can't even get it online until around T250. Seems like a waste of hammers on the temples if I'm right about the end date. But if the game drags out, this could be a critical mistake cus I could run out of money.
I suppose I could just invest in a useless library so I can run 2 Sci. That will at least give me a shot at either a shrine or a golden age.
fyi, I decided to do neither of the two options above (temples or library).
I built a market and ran 2 merchants. I was getting scared about my economy. A market sounded better than 2 missionaries and 2 temples...even tho temples are half price! I don't think I care what GP I get. I'm pretty sure a golden age is better than a GM trade mission or a shrine. But my game will probably be over before he's born
.
Tip for the day:
It seems that 'land target' (i.e. getting 8 adjacent tiles) doesn't count tiles that are adjacent to your vassal.
I thought it worked that way. Not a big deal. I can work around it, but just thought I'd help anyone else who's planning peace vassals.
It seems that 'land target' (i.e. getting 8 adjacent tiles) doesn't count tiles that are adjacent to your vassal.
I thought it worked that way. Not a big deal. I can work around it, but just thought I'd help anyone else who's planning peace vassals.
I'll be wrapping up my game in the next day or two, but I'm currently not planning to submit it until after the Jan 10 update. I have to keep a few secrets until the end 
but I've given away most of the major stuff, just not all my dirty tricks.
Wanted to let ya'all know I'm not submitting yet...in case you were waiting to download my save and regen maps from there.
but I've given away most of the major stuff, just not all my dirty tricks.Wanted to let ya'all know I'm not submitting yet...in case you were waiting to download my save and regen maps from there.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Finished my 3nd game, and this time without a single crash.
Here is the writeup:
Settings: Dense Mountains, scattered and large seas.
Gives a 1600er map, so a lot smaller than in my first game where I chose thin mountains to get more good land, 600 more land exactly.
Start had Wet Corn, riverside grassland sheep, tundra hills dear and 1 gold 1 silver, so quite good.
Expanded very late (2nd city 2200 BC) because I wanted to have maximum whipping efficiency with 6 -> 3 whips.
Minimum number of oppoents gave me land for 10 good cities. Tried to start war against my neighbours earlier, but had neither Copper nor Iron, so I needed to go Horse Archers.
Went against Pacal, because he had the Pyramids. He was in middle range of my emipre, just 1 empire in between us, but I should have chosen a dfiferent target and forget about the mids, because Pacal had Holkans and War Elephants.
Still managed to get him down, but only with lots and lots of Catapults and one of the first conquered cities had Iron, which was good.
Pacal didn't only have the Mids, he also had a Shrine, something I wouldn't know how to manage without on this mapscript and with these settings.
As already told, I was basically running a deficit at 0%, sometimes up to 200g deficit / turn.
Conquest gold helped greatly.
Took out Lincoln with Maces, Gallic Warriors, Horse-Archers, Catapults and later Trebs and took his capitulation. This didn't interfere with wanting peace-vassals too, because Lincoln had very good relations to the others.
Double bulbed Education, because otherwise I wouldn't have had any chance at Liberalism.
Won Liberalism but unfortunately, I needed to take Printing Press, because all other techs were available by AI. Crawled towards Cuirrassiers, and then came the whip .Whipped out 200 Cuirrassiers and later 100 Cavalries and rolled over the map. Coordinating so many units was no fun though.
Vassaled 5 / 8 Civs, with Mansa vassaling feely.
I wondered why Hatty didn't want to peacefully vassal, had 3 times her military, shared borders, but she always denied, first for "we're doing ok without you" , later with "you have grown to powerful for us" .
Had really stupid and severe losses in all wars, I think I lost over 5 98% fights over the whole game.
Had 2 GAs btw., no chance at Taj Mahal because Frederick had Nationalism so much earlier in the game. Actually, the AIs were always the more advanced ones because my economy was so bad, or maintenance is simply crazy on this mapscript.
I'm very happy, that I know got a game you can compete with, and that gives me time to play something different.
I'll probably play even a 4th game, but not before I let Mapfinder run for 1 week. The difference between the tripple wet Corn + 2 gold start was just too great, compared to the start I described above, which also had 3 Food-resources and 2 Luxuries.
Have fun playing, your time to beat is before 1000 AD, but not much.
Here is the writeup:
Settings: Dense Mountains, scattered and large seas.
Gives a 1600er map, so a lot smaller than in my first game where I chose thin mountains to get more good land, 600 more land exactly.
Start had Wet Corn, riverside grassland sheep, tundra hills dear and 1 gold 1 silver, so quite good.
Expanded very late (2nd city 2200 BC) because I wanted to have maximum whipping efficiency with 6 -> 3 whips.
Minimum number of oppoents gave me land for 10 good cities. Tried to start war against my neighbours earlier, but had neither Copper nor Iron, so I needed to go Horse Archers.
Went against Pacal, because he had the Pyramids. He was in middle range of my emipre, just 1 empire in between us, but I should have chosen a dfiferent target and forget about the mids, because Pacal had Holkans and War Elephants.
Still managed to get him down, but only with lots and lots of Catapults and one of the first conquered cities had Iron, which was good.
Pacal didn't only have the Mids, he also had a Shrine, something I wouldn't know how to manage without on this mapscript and with these settings.
As already told, I was basically running a deficit at 0%, sometimes up to 200g deficit / turn.
Conquest gold helped greatly.
Took out Lincoln with Maces, Gallic Warriors, Horse-Archers, Catapults and later Trebs and took his capitulation. This didn't interfere with wanting peace-vassals too, because Lincoln had very good relations to the others.
Double bulbed Education, because otherwise I wouldn't have had any chance at Liberalism.
Won Liberalism but unfortunately, I needed to take Printing Press, because all other techs were available by AI. Crawled towards Cuirrassiers, and then came the whip
.Whipped out 200 Cuirrassiers and later 100 Cavalries and rolled over the map. Coordinating so many units was no fun though.Vassaled 5 / 8 Civs, with Mansa vassaling feely.
I wondered why Hatty didn't want to peacefully vassal, had 3 times her military, shared borders, but she always denied, first for "we're doing ok without you" , later with "you have grown to powerful for us" .
Had really stupid and severe losses in all wars, I think I lost over 5 98% fights over the whole game.
Had 2 GAs btw., no chance at Taj Mahal because Frederick had Nationalism so much earlier in the game. Actually, the AIs were always the more advanced ones because my economy was so bad, or maintenance is simply crazy on this mapscript.
I'm very happy, that I know got a game you can compete with, and that gives me time to play something different.
I'll probably play even a 4th game, but not before I let Mapfinder run for 1 week. The difference between the tripple wet Corn + 2 gold start was just too great, compared to the start I described above, which also had 3 Food-resources and 2 Luxuries.
Have fun playing, your time to beat is before 1000 AD, but not much.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2011
- Messages
- 8,165
I forgot. I stole over 50 Workers during that round, 10 alone from my next neighbour using a WMII Warrior.
I'm somehow clueless, how I still could be slower than in my 2nd game, I mean 10 stolen Workers in the beginning, that's almost 1k of saved
.
Still, was very fun, I'll probably try to steal more Workers in my following rounds, even if they don't change the game completely, it's really a nice trade-off of diplo vs hammers.
I'm somehow clueless, how I still could be slower than in my 2nd game, I mean 10 stolen Workers in the beginning, that's almost 1k of saved
.Still, was very fun, I'll probably try to steal more Workers in my following rounds, even if they don't change the game completely, it's really a nice trade-off of diplo vs hammers.
I stole around 36 workers. I never built a single one. I maxed out at 33 cus I've been killing any new ones.
This game is really a joy to play.
I feel like I've been running -100 gpt most of the mid and late game. First while researching, and even after I turned off research and went 100% wealth...I'm still -100gpt because once I finished Feudal, I could take a few more cities and chop/whip out a ton of +2xp vassalage units.
This is a very fun game where you have to manage your economy, war, and diplo.
Thanks shulec! And thx Seraiel for instigating (I think this gauntlet was your idea) and encouraging others to play. And I'm always looking to win more sammiches from Mitchum. I took his comments as an unofficial bet that T250 was not realistic. And we always bet sammies.
This game is really a joy to play.
I feel like I've been running -100 gpt most of the mid and late game. First while researching, and even after I turned off research and went 100% wealth...I'm still -100gpt because once I finished Feudal, I could take a few more cities and chop/whip out a ton of +2xp vassalage units.
This is a very fun game where you have to manage your economy, war, and diplo.
Thanks shulec! And thx Seraiel for instigating (I think this gauntlet was your idea) and encouraging others to play. And I'm always looking to win more sammiches from Mitchum. I took his comments as an unofficial bet that T250 was not realistic. And we always bet sammies.
The undead have spoken!Looks like vassals are the new "Thing".
Keep up the good work.
O'Rly.
I'd say, this Gauntlet has hit a nerve and really shows maximum participation, just like wanted
Nice that you're playing with us Kai
Hopefully I'm not so rusty I can't provide some competition.
Down to 5 civs on Turn 264 on my current attempt.
Hopefully I can roll the rest up, but longbows are starting to arrive and some of the empires are pretty huge (15-20 cities).
x1.5 power rating is pretty impressive if anyone is that high around Turn 260ish.
Most AI, I am 0.8 power rating with.
Keeping an eye out for peace vassals, but no luck so far.
They're all doing fine on their own.
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