Breaking Save Game Compatibility for v37

Great job!

It does seem a little odd that the African Elephant and American Black Bear are completely unaggressive. I mean I know they don't USUALLY get aggressive... I suppose I should kinda relax and let your research be your guide ... reality is you've probably got far better cause for your settings than I know given how incredibly thorough you've been (which I'm deeply impressed by btw!)

One thing I'm really going to have to do I think is make an iAggressionChange tag for promos. Just a few examples of potential application:
1) Disease - rabies (as an affliction that impacts animals, adding a huge amount of aggression)
2) ManEater - when tigers have tasted humans they begin to actively hunt them from then on. (Adds aggression but also adds UNITCOMBAT_HUMAN as a 'target'.)
 
Yeah, I only said the naming would be a bit over the top I get your arguments thought. Makes sense now ;)

But now I'm unsure about the new idea of how hunting (or combat in general in SM) should work. First of all, if defeated enemies split instead of being killed, that would increase the number of units quite a bit. You also have to problem that the map is blocked by animals everywhere and you can't explore very well. Both of these problems could be partly resolved by decreasing the spawn rate.

And how could this be seen in a realistic way? If you finally kill an animal unit, is it extinct in this region? How could they respawn?
The way I imagined hunting is that there are animals everywhere, but animal units represent the exact animal(s) you stumbled upon. There can be 1000s of Horses on that plot but you only fight against a few - the unit. When the unit is killed, there are still many horses there; you just don't see them.
 
When I get home from work today, I'm thinking of updating to the latest SVN and starting a new game. Should I wait until you're done with the seperation of animals from the barbarians? Is everything reasonably functional currently?

EDIT: Joining the discussion about animals, it is unrealistic that animals cannot enter your cultural borders. For example, in 2014, there were estimated 84.000 elk within the borders of Finland. The thing is, you rarely see them, they avoid civilisation to the best of their abilities. In my opinion, animals should be invisible to all units except for hunters, wardens etc. Yes, all but few animal units should be aggressive. When animal attacks start happening, you know you should respond by training hunters.

By the time you get big game hunters, there's usually next to none animal spawning grounds left, since neutral lands become very scarce due to empires expanding. I still think the empasis on animal spawning should be on neutral lands, but some spawning should happen within cultural borders. Hunting throughout the ages would be more fun than hunting in the first few eras. The amount of food and production you'd get from hunting in the later eras would be insignificant, but it would still be satisfying. Is taxidermy a thing is C2C, I forget? Expertly taxidermied animals aren't cheap, perhaps you should get wealth from hunting kills once taxidermy is researched.
 
Winter Warrior said:
When I get home from work today, I'm thinking of updating to the latest SVN and starting a new game. Should I wait until you're done with the seperation of animals from the barbarians? Is everything reasonably functional currently?

EDIT: Joining the discussion about animals, it is unrealistic that animals cannot enter your cultural borders. For example, in 2014, there were estimated 84.000 elk within the borders of Finland. The thing is, you rarely see them, they avoid civilisation to the best of their abilities. In my opinion, animals should be invisible to all units except for hunters, wardens etc. Yes, all but few animal units should be aggressive. When animal attacks start happening, you know you should respond by training hunters.

By the time you get big game hunters, there's usually next to none animal spawning grounds left, since neutral lands become very scarce due to empires expanding. I still think the empasis on animal spawning should be on neutral lands, but some spawning should happen within cultural borders. Hunting throughout the ages would be more fun than hunting in the first few eras. The amount of food and production you'd get from hunting in the later eras would be insignificant, but it would still be satisfying. Is taxidermy a thing is C2C, I forget? Expertly taxidermied animals aren't cheap, perhaps you should get wealth from hunting kills once taxidermy is researched.
Click to expand...

The lates SVN is unstable. With the SVN you can always do an "update to revision..."; 9123 should be stable enough.
I agree that animals should be mainly visible by hunters, this is how it mostly is in my modmod of C2C.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Great job!

It does seem a little odd that the African Elephant and American Black Bear are completely unaggressive. I mean I know they don't USUALLY get aggressive... I suppose I should kinda relax and let your research be your guide ... reality is you've probably got far better cause for your settings than I know given how incredibly thorough you've been (which I'm deeply impressed by btw!)
Click to expand...
Black bear has quite good camouflage (in forest) and will be able to utilize its stealth defense regularly, so it will probably get aggressive after not too long. The African Elephant will most likely survive each and every daring predator that tries to attack it, As you said every level counts as aggression.
 
Faustmouse said:
But now I'm unsure about the new idea of how hunting (or combat in general in SM) should work. First of all, if defeated enemies split instead of being killed, that would increase the number of units quite a bit. You also have to problem that the map is blocked by animals everywhere and you can't explore very well. Both of these problems could be partly resolved by decreasing the spawn rate.
Click to expand...
And infusing animals with the desire to merge as well can help. I'd have to give us a few more tags to indicate animal behaviors to do this properly. And larger groups being a source of spawning could give the smaller groups hanging with the larger groups some fodder to merge with as well.

As stated though, I'd certainly make it an option at first to test how it would go. Also keep in mind that when a smaller group size is defeated by a larger group size you'd have no split. And I'd probably give onslaught to mounted units to help them with their general reduced volume amount.

And how could this be seen in a realistic way? If you finally kill an animal unit, is it extinct in this region? How could they respawn?
The way I imagined hunting is that there are animals everywhere, but animal units represent the exact animal(s) you stumbled upon. There can be 1000s of Horses on that plot but you only fight against a few - the unit. When the unit is killed, there are still many horses there; you just don't see them.
Click to expand...
I don't think you'd have to change that perspective. We wouldn't think of the animal units on the board as being the only animals any more than we currently do.

Obviously you still have 'original' spawn points as you do now and animal units still representing 'encounters' rather than the sum total of animals that actually exist. It just makes those encounters more varied and a little more organic. There's still 'populations' represented by bonuses of course.

Winter Warrior said:
When I get home from work today, I'm thinking of updating to the latest SVN and starting a new game. Should I wait until you're done with the seperation of animals from the barbarians? Is everything reasonably functional currently?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure things are 'unstable' at the moment (though I was taken by surprise last night by a major bug I'd overlooked so it certainly is possible.) But I can certainly promise that within a few weeks the saves will be broken again by another update. Hopefully that will be the last time.

EDIT: Joining the discussion about animals, it is unrealistic that animals cannot enter your cultural borders. For example, in 2014, there were estimated 84.000 elk within the borders of Finland. The thing is, you rarely see them, they avoid civilisation to the best of their abilities. In my opinion, animals should be invisible to all units except for hunters, wardens etc. Yes, all but few animal units should be aggressive. When animal attacks start happening, you know you should respond by training hunters.
Click to expand...
For animals that cannot attack at all, I'm beginning to think we may be able to allow it. Outside of that, we may need a game option for this because there are players and modders who REALLY don't want this to take place. Such an option would allow spawning within borders as well so long as the plot isn't 'improved'.

By the time you get big game hunters, there's usually next to none animal spawning grounds left, since neutral lands become very scarce due to empires expanding. I still think the empasis on animal spawning should be on neutral lands, but some spawning should happen within cultural borders. Hunting throughout the ages would be more fun than hunting in the first few eras. The amount of food and production you'd get from hunting in the later eras would be insignificant, but it would still be satisfying. Is taxidermy a thing is C2C, I forget? Expertly taxidermied animals aren't cheap, perhaps you should get wealth from hunting kills once taxidermy is researched.
Click to expand...
Interesting building concept for mid-later games.

Toffer90 said:
Black bear has quite good camouflage (in forest) and will be able to utilize its stealth defense regularly, so it will probably get aggressive after not too long. The African Elephant will most likely survive each and every daring predator that tries to attack it, As you said every level counts as aggression.
Click to expand...
Makes sense.
 
I have made a first set of changes to the spawn file.

Initial pass I set to aggressive if either a carnivore or omnivore. To passive if herbavore.

Second pass set smaller carnivores that would be unlikely to attack humans to passive. (assuming the new aggressive tag would be used on these.)

So a round up:

Birds: nearly all are passive - not sure about hawk, eagle, secretary bird.

Sea: All large animals are aggressive - whales, sharks, squid etc.

Rays, dolphins are passive.

All small sea animals, fish, crab, turtles, sea otters are passive.

All crocs/alligators are aggressive. As are komodo dragons.

Land: Currently all bears are aggressive except Panda and Red Panda. Noticed Toffer has Black Bears as passive, so will change that.

All cats are aggressive.

All grazing animals are passive deers, Kangeroos, Bison etc. However I think the African Water buffalow and wild boar maybe should be changed to aggressive. (any thoughts Toffer).

All smaller animals set to passive.

Most animals I was not sure about I have set to passive for now.

Glyptodon, Tarrantulla, Thylacin, DartFrog, Quoll, Fennec fox.

Will adjust as needed to fit with Toffer's adjustments.

Edit -forgot to say - goes in XML/Units and rename (start of file, remove NEW)
 
Observation from starting a New game with 9125 this morning.

Old way for animals early game: you could put a wanderer and ST together and set them in a well defended tile close to your city set the Wanderer on Trap Hunting and ST on Build Fortifications and amd animals would come attack you pair. Most killed but some subdued, with the occasional stronger animal killing 1 of the pair. Of course once you got Clubman you replaced the ST and once tracker the wanderer, so on for each new level. You would also build more pairs to cover all sides of your city for max effect. And a pair or to to move further out when close hunting slowed down.

New way of for animals: old way not as effective by alot. Stationary pairs the animals for the most part will not attack. Only Certain highly aggressive will, ex. Bengal Tiger Cassowary. Ex. ones that will Not Str 4 Rhinos, Elephants.

You now have to constantly move your pair about until you build up enough True hunting promos from your victories. Subduing is way way down (this is all early game and all before tribalism to keep your timeframe in reference).

Certain animals when killed now give a Mil Captive! Kookabora bird comes to mind but there are several others I didn't write down.

The flow of subdued animals is very much decreased, whether by design or not.

When I get a chance today to play more I'll report more. Especially the animals that give a Human Mil Captive, which I'm sure is not intended. ;)

JosEPh
 
JosEPh_II said:
The flow of subdued animals is very much decreased, whether by design or not.

When I get a chance today to play more I'll report more. Especially the animals that give a Human Mil Captive, which I'm sure is not intended. ;)

JosEPh
Click to expand...

Jo, the spawninfo that is in the SVN had all animals set to passive. No changes were made, whilst TB was trying to get the new tag to work.

The version I posted in the post above yours has a mixture of passive/aggressive. Still a work in progress.

Let us know if that makes a differance.
 
Harrier said:
All grazing animals are passive deers, Kangeroos, Bison etc. However I think the African Water buffalow and wild boar maybe should be changed to aggressive. (any thoughts Toffer).
Click to expand...
The buffalo usually only attack, with the intent to kill, animals it considers as predators such as big cats, wolfs, hyenas, bears and of course humans. So it should be passive IMO. The water buffalo don't really bother with killing birds and other critters.

The Wild Boar usually only attack in self defense, though it can misunderstand when self defense is needed or not. I would make it passive so it mostly fights off predators and not goes around chasing critters.
 
JosEPh_II said:
Observation from starting a New game with 9125 this morning.

JosEPh
Click to expand...

Harrier said:
The version I posted in the post above yours has a mixture of passive/aggressive. Still a work in progress.

Let us know if that makes a difference.
Click to expand...

Yeah good observation and status on trying NEW things out, nice!!!!:) I really appreciate all this Joe!!!;)
 
@TB:

Would this work:
Code: 
<GroupSpawnUnitCombatTypes>
				<GroupSpawnUnitCombatType>
					<UnitCombatType>y</UnitCombatType>
					<iChance>x</iChance>
				</GroupSpawnUnitCombatType>
</GroupSpawnUnitCombatTypes>
Or do I need to set it up like this:
Code: 
<GroupSpawnUnitCombatTypes>
				<GroupSpawnUnitCombatType>
					<UnitCombatType>y</UnitCombatType>
					<iChance>x</iChance>
					<Title/>
				</GroupSpawnUnitCombatType>
</GroupSpawnUnitCombatTypes>
??
 
Toffer90 said:
The buffalo usually only attack, with the intent to kill, animals it considers as predators such as big cats, wolfs, hyenas, bears and of course humans. So it should be passive IMO. The water buffalo don't really bother with killing birds and other critters.

The Wild Boar usually only attack in self defense, though it can misunderstand when self defense is needed or not. I would make it passive so it mostly fights off predators and not goes around chasing critters.
Click to expand...

Comment on wild boars; here in the Midwest USA wild boars were released several years ago in certain areas. To date they have multiplied like crazy and are presenting a real danger to unsuspecting humans and animals, very aggressive behavior to anyone that gets into their "territory". So much so that there are now full fledged efforts to hunt down these animals. Before you had to have a permit and only hunt a certain season like deer. Now farmers and land owners in states like Missouri are told to hunt as many and whenever they want on their own property. State lands are still more regulated.

JosEPh
 
Rhinos and hippos are also famous/infamous for being very aggressive defending their territory. Though they don't go out of their way looking for fights.
 
The problem with the kookaburra giving a mil captive should now be fixed. As poiunted out it was the only unit with a wrong value in a tag.

Where I live every spring small birds do attack humans. They go for the eyes. Knock people of push bikes and are a protected species. People come up with interesting ways of getting to work or bus. Of course if you feed them throughout the year they, that flock, wont attack you or yours. It is sort of like a protection racket.
 
JosEPh_II said:
Comment on wild boars; here in the Midwest USA wild boars were released several years ago in certain areas. To date they have multiplied like crazy and are presenting a real danger to unsuspecting humans and animals, very aggressive behavior to anyone that gets into their "territory". So much so that there are now full fledged efforts to hunt down these animals. Before you had to have a permit and only hunt a certain season like deer. Now farmers and land owners in states like Missouri are told to hunt as many and whenever they want on their own property. State lands are still more regulated.

JosEPh
Click to expand...
Wild boar behavior vary very much from area to area, but boars that is not familiar with humans generally keep their distance even when being in their territory which can be several square kilometers large. Human encroachment into animal territory tends to upset the natural behavior of any animal.

We could set up wild boars more like the bison as seen in my latest list:

Spoiler :
Code: 
This shows my thinking when I adjusted Animals_CIV4UnitInfos.xml

bOnlyDefensive=1 & bAnimalIgnoresBorders=1 in UnitInfo - bNeutralOnly=0 in SpawnInfo
Defensive Only - Unrestricted Spawning:
	PASSIVE:
		Aardvark...............	AARDVARK...............	iAggression = 0
		African Elephant.......	AFRICANELEPHANT........	iAggression = 2
		African Grey Parrot....	AFRICANGREY............	iAggression = 0
		African Penguin........	AFRICAN_PENGUIN........	iAggression = 0
		Giant Anteater.........	ANTEATER...............	iAggression = 0
		Armadillo..............	ARMADILLO..............	iAggression = 0
		Babirusa...............	BABIRUSA...............	iAggression = 0
		Badger................. BADGER.................	iAggression = 0
		Ball Python............	BALLPYTHON.............	iAggression = 0
		Barbary macaque........	BARBARYAPE.............	iAggression = 0
		Barn Owl...............	BARNOWL................	iAggression = 0
		Barred Owl.............	BARREDOWL..............	iAggression = 0
		Beaver.................	BEAVER.................	iAggression = 0
		American Black Bear.... BLACKBEAR..............	iAggression = 1
		Wild Boar.............. BOAR...................	iAggression = 1
		Bongo..................	BONGO..................	iAggression = 0
		Booby.................. BOOBY..................	iAggression = 0
		Dromedary..............	CAMEL..................	iAggression = 0
		Capuchin Monkey........	CAPUCHIN...............	iAggression = 0
		Capybara...............	CAPYBARA...............	iAggression = 0
		Caribou................	CARIBOU................	iAggression = 0
		Cassowary..............	CASSOWARY..............	iAggression = 0
		Cod....................	COD....................	iAggression = 0
		Crab...................	CRAB...................	iAggression = 0
		Crow...................	CROW...................	iAggression = 0
		Common Spotted Cuscus..	CUSCUS.................	iAggression = 0
		Poison Dart Frog.......	DARTFROG...............	iAggression = 0
		Desert Tortoise........	DESERT_TORTOISE........	iAggression = 0
		Dolphin................	DOLPHIN................	iAggression = 0
		Onager.................	DONKEY.................	iAggression = 0
		Duck...................	DUCK...................	iAggression = 0
		Dugong.................	DUGONG.................	iAggression = 0
		Asian Elephant.........	ELEPHANT...............	iAggression = 1
		Emu....................	EMU....................	iAggression = 0
		Fennec Fox.............	FENNECFOX..............	iAggression = 0
		Flamingo...............	FLAMINGO............... iAggression = 0
		Galapagos Penguin......	GALAPAGOS_PENGUIN......	iAggression = 0
	AGGRASSIVE:
		Arctic Fox............. ARCTICFOX..............	iAggression = 0	(Assassinate WATERFOWL & SEABIRD)
		Beluga Whale...........	BELUGA.................	iAggression = 0	(Assassinate CRUSTACEAN & FISH_BONEY)
		Ussuri dhole...........	DHOLE..................	iAggression = 0	(Assassinate ANTELOPE, BOVINE, CERVID, EQUINE & SWINE)
		Dingo..................	DINGO..................	iAggression = 0	(Assassinate MARSUPIAL)
		Bald Eagle.............	EAGLE..................	iAggression = 0	(Assassinate BIRD_SEABIRD, BIRD_WATERFOWL & RODENT)
		Ethiopian Wolf.........	EWOLF..................	iAggression = 0	(Assassinate RODENT)


Can Attack - Stealth Defense - Only neutral Spawning:
	PASSIVE:
		Asian Black Bear....... ASIANBEAR..............	iAggression = 3 (Assassinate: SOLO & PARTY)
		Bison.................. BISON..................	iAggression = 3 (Defensive Only)
		Cape Buffalo...........	BUFFALO................ iAggression = 3
		Cave Bear..............	CAVEBEAR...............	iAggression = 0
		Chimpanzee.............	CHIMPANZEE.............	iAggression = 2
		Auroch.................	COW.................... iAggression = 4	(Defensive Only)
	AGGRASSIVE:
		Jaguar.................	ANIMAL_JAGUAR..........	iAggression = 9 (Assassinate: SOLO, PARTY, CERVID, RODENT & TAPIR)
		Brown Bear............. BEAR...................	iAggression = 1 (Assassinate: BOVINE, CERVID, GOAT & SWINE)
		Bengal Tiger...........	BENGALTIGER............	iAggression = 7 (Assassinate: ANTELOPE, BOVINE, CERVID & SWINE)
		Black Caiman...........	CAIMAN.................	iAggression = 2	(Assassinate: BIRD, CERVID, RODENT & TAPIR)
		Cave Lion..............	CAVE_LION..............	iAggression = 6	(Assassinate: BOVINE, CERVID, EQUINE & URSINE)
		Cheetah................	CHEETAH................	iAggression = 4	(Assassinate: ANTELOPE, RATITE, & SWINE)
		Cobra..................	COBRA..................	iAggression = 2	(Assassinate: DIMINUTIVE, TINY, & SMALL)
		Dire Wolf..............	DIREWOLF...............	iAggression = 6	

Defensive Only animals can be made able to attack by the "Savage Beast I" promotion. "Savage Beast III" will make them ignore cultural borders.

I'm thinking that maybe "Savage Beast I" should removes 1 reason for ignoring cultural border (as well as removing defensive only) and "Savage Beast III" adds two reasons for ignoring cultural borders so that "Savage Beast III" would be needed for any animal that can attack to enter human territory, regardless of the animals initial ignore border status.

"Savage Beast I" could add a reason for stealth defense, that way I could remove initial stealth defense from some of the animals in the second PASSIVE group (that have defensive only) and place the animal in the first PASSIVE group instead. That way more animals could spawn inside friendly territory.

Is there currently any animals in the Second PASSIVE group that you think should be able to spawn inside cultural borders? e.g. Bison or black bear?
EDIT: I moved black bear to the first passive block; they seem to thrive close to modern settlements and should thus be able to spawn inside cultural borders.
 
strategyonly said:
Did u fix ur PC?:confused:
Click to expand...

Still "at the shop". Got a call yesterday about it, but no solution yet. Yes I have a SSD on that machine and I upgraded to Windows 10 last Dec. Unfortunately I did not make a restore point. Probably because it is not obvious where you do it under Win 10.
 
@TB: It would have been nice if iAggression defaults to 0 instead of 5.

There are more completely unaggressive animals than not, and it's more intuitive that not setting aggression means unaggressive.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

L
More no-rng options
Replies
10
Views
841
Leodim
L
Alekseyev_
Change player data in multiplayer save?
Replies
2
Views
202
Alekseyev_
Alekseyev_
jooe
Experimental savegame compatibility across addition of units/buildings [TESTING]
Replies
0
Views
363
jooe
jooe
Blake00
[CTP] Call To Power 2 SDL2 Port for Modern Windows, Linux & MacOS
Replies
0
Views
780
Blake00
Blake00
B
Wonderful game, but some diplomacy oversights break immersion and logic
Replies
3
Views
694
Behner_Civ
B
Top Bottom